dschult3
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Post by dschult3 on Nov 9, 2020 23:02:40 GMT
Tales of Vesperia: Definitive EditionI finished up the main plot of the definitive edition on the PS4. Most of my review of the original on the XBox 360 over on the first page of this thread still applies. Visuals:Aside from the increased frame rate on the PS4 version (and I believe all the versions aside from the Switch), there isn't much different here. Largely due to its cell shading, Vesperia's visuals hold up very well among the 7th console generation. When compared to its 7th gen siblings, Vesperia does take some shortcuts to keep its visual quality. Players have no control over the camera angles for example (as they do in Xillia and later entries), which limit the amount of objects to be rendered. Cities and dungeons are implied to be much larger than they through backgrounds, and it works very well. Soundtrack: Nothing to add here. The score is still great, and the opening theme is still a banger. Voice Acting (English):The original recordings are re-used, and most of the original cast returns to voice their original dialogue, with the notable exception of Troy Baker as Yuri, whose new lines are dubbed by Grant George. It is sad to hear that Troy Baker was not asked, despite being interested, likely due to his profile these days. I'm guessing the English voice director assumed he'd be too expensive without asking. Grant George does a serviceable job, but the difference is noticeable if you're listening for it. There's also a bit of an issue with some of the audio mixing on the new dialogue. Some of the skits are extremely quiet. On my surround sound system, I noticed for new skits with this issue, sound was coming from the side-speakers only whereas for older skits, the dialogue also came through the center speaker. It is possible this might not be as notable if using just stereo sound, but even a lot of Flynn's newly recorded battle dialogue is noticeably quieter than that of the other characters. Mechanics: Not much to say here that didn't apply to the original, but having more characters who could function as healers were nice, making it not as essential to have Estelle constantly in the party in the later half of the game. She's still the best healer, but you can make due without her. The game lacks a lot of the more complex battle sub-systems introduced in later Tales games, and I actually kind of enjoyed that. I thinks fans of more complexity will still be able to enjoy switching between different primary battle characters to see the variance in style This was the last console tales game to feature a world map (Innocence and Hearts both have one, but both were handheld titles), so it was nice to see it return. Graces, Xillia, Xillia 2, Zestiria and Berseria all featured interconnected areas with fast travel, and Symphonia: Dawn of a New World featured fast travel via map. It was enjoyable to go back to the old-style overworld map. Sadly, there were a lot of things missing that have become standard in JRPG remasters lately, such as the ability to speed up to 2x or 4x speed to hurry things along. While I can see this would make tales real-time combat potentially quite confusing, it would have still been nice outside of combat. Cut scenes and skits can be entirely skipped over, which is nice if you're replaying it, or if a skit is dragging on. Unfortunately skits can only be skipped. If you want to watch them but read very quickly, you still have to wait for the voice acting to catch up. One thing I wasn't looking forward to was playing through the game with base stats again, since there is no way for folks with an old save to skip directly to the Grade Shop and New Game+, even if you're playing on an XBox One... ...however, to compensate for this, all of the original DLC is available for free. This includes costumes, a large number of rare items, cash, and 40 levels worth of free boosts. For those who've played the game before, these are excellent boosts, allowing you to skip grinding, unlock powerful synthesized weapons early, etc. Though I would note you get more bang for your buck the longer you can hold off using free levels. Players experiencing Vesperia for the first time have the option to use none of these, of course. Story
I was interested to see how the story would be adapted to Flynn being with the party at various points, and for the addition of Patty, but I would say that both were handled very naturally. I think this was probably intended from the start, since both date from the PS3 release of Vesperia. Patty's existence is hinted at in the original 360 version, so it makes sense if the writers kept her in mind during the initial creation, and wrote scenes that worked with and without her.
I still really like that Yuri is the main character, despite being the more disreputable of the two friends, and willing to go outside the law to do what is necessary. As I said in the original review, in most JRPGs, Flynn would have been the main character, and Yuri would have just been a fan-favourite side-character.
One thing I noticed on the replay is that Vesperia doesn't really have a compelling antagonist. The initial "main" antagonist, Alexei, doesn't get fleshed out very well, and is dead by 2/3rds of the way through the story. The final antagonist, Duke, is quite friendly to the party, and up until very late in the game, is someone who helps out quite a bit. Someone with similar, but ultimately incompatible goals. The Adephagos is mainly a strange entity, and not really personified at all. It could be said that humanity's hubris, short-sightedness, etc. This is common in the Tales series, but it hasn't prevented them from having compelling antagonists before or since. The lack of a strong villain is probable Vesperia's main weak point.
Overall
I liked the original, I like this one. Definitely recommended. However, like most Tales games, but the time I reached the end of the story content, I had no real interest in finishing off the side quests, dealing with any post-game optional stuff, etc. Thanks for the review. I was really interested in the perspective of someone who played the original. I did not realize those two characters were not present on the 360. Did that change the game play a lot for you?
I read about the voice changes, and apparently it was jarring for previous players. I didn't notice it much, so it didn't really bother me. I can understand though. In Valkyria Chronicles 4, the DLC had different voice actors for the original characters. That angered me to no end, so I get it.
I must agree that I was thrilled to have a world map. It was done well, and it brings back an old school style of game play that is missed.
The difficulty spikes sucked ass, and when I did Google the game, apparently some players didn't see what I mentioned previously which caused me to stop playing for a while. Others had it just as bad. I found that odd.
As for the lack of a concrete villain, I sort of liked that. I don't want all of my games to be good vs. evil. I suppose that is why I love Xenoblade so much. In 2 especially, you really get a sense of why all of the villains are doing what they are doing. It is to a point that I'm not sure if they are all that "evil." It gives the game a sense of the real world.
I honestly liked this game a lot. I think in a few years, I will probably replay this one. Maybe I'll actually go through the rest of the side quests with a guide.
By the way, I was really hoping we could see the ancient town <spoiler free here> one last time.
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Post by Imperial Khador on Nov 9, 2020 23:31:05 GMT
Apparently you can see the ancient town again in the post-game, but I have not gone and done so. I don't think the addition of Flynn and Patty changed too much. Flynn was still present in a lot of the same places in the 360 version, but just wasn't playable except very briefly near the end. The ghost ship was still present when you first find it, but it doesn't make a return later, since Patty isn't in that version. Other than that, her sections just aren't there. Regarding the difficulty spike, I think it definitely happens. For me it was the Schwann fight, rather than Alexei. Ultimately I just said "screw it" and used the DLC bonuses to gain 10 levels quickly, rather than slow grinding, or trying the fight over and over again. I figured I'd beaten the game once already on the 360, so didn't feel bad about skipping some grinding time A lot of the human foes from that point on (including Alexei) can teleport, easily interrupt your combos, and have Mystic Artes that can hit everyone on screen and kill one or more characters. The not-so-obvious counter to this is stage 3 and 4 over limit. Unfortunately, since stage 1 and 2 over limit are introduced as part of the story, it is easy to miss that stage 3 and 4 (and thus each characters' mystic artes) each require an item to be synthesized. In particular, stage 4 overlimit prevents you from being staggered, or taking damage while it is in effect. There are some skills that benefit overlimit as well...names escape me, but I remember making heavy use of one that increases the duration, and another that counts each use of overlimit as one stage higher (ie, you use stage 3 overlimit, but gain all the benefits of stage 4). By the time, you're hitting the harder human bosses, you can do 100-150k damage by using overlimit, and then going into your mystic arte just as it is about to expire, and then building up quickly again with the use of limit bottle items. It doesn't make these fights a cakewalk, but it definitely takes the edge off.
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Post by Imperial Khador on Nov 10, 2020 5:16:19 GMT
As for the lack of a concrete villain, I sort of liked that. I don't want all of my games to be good vs. evil. I suppose that is why I love Xenoblade so much. In 2 especially, you really get a sense of why all of the villains are doing what they are doing. It is to a point that I'm not sure if they are all that "evil." It gives the game a sense of the real world.
It isn't so much the lack of a concrete villain at all that bugs me, so much as none of the ones that are presented are very compelling. Spoilers for more detailed discussion. Part of it is that so much is tied back to the 'Great War', but the war itself is shrouded in mystery for something that...you know...enveloped the entire civilized world only 10 years previous to the game. The Entelexeia remain a mystery for a good portion of the game considering they were apparently very well known until the recent past. I will say that Raven/Schwann makes a reasonably compelling villain. He comes off as a bit of a cynic, but his dual loyalties to Alexei and the Don make him seem sympathetic, and his loyalty to the party as well. He seems like someone who feels debts deeply and wants to believe in people, even when they're terrible. Ragou and Cumore are more just to highlight the corruption of the empire, but are pretty shallow in terms of motivation. The both of them are more about Yuri's character development. The idea that some people are monsters that society will protect, and the only way to deal with them with finality is to kill them. Zagi...feels extraneous. He's not Yuri's rival, as that role is filled by Flynn. He encountered Yuri randomly at the beginning of the game, and certainly sees Yuri as his rival, but I'm surprised the party ever even remembers his name. Yeager is a...mix of contradictory actions and motivations. He's loyal to Alexei, but helps the party our seemingly at random. He runs two guilds to support both legitimate and black market arms and blastia dealings, but also works for Alexei for...reasons that are never made clear. He helps you at times, but ultimately sides with Alexei shortly before his death, but again...there isn't a clear reason why. With better writing, there might have been a suggestion that he was trying to play both sides right until the end, but then ultimately makes the wrong decision, but it just doesn't come through. You find out later, he sponsors an orphanage from which he adopted Gauche and Droite, but there's not much fleshed out there in the main story. I suspect you probably reveal more about that in a side quest somewhere, since you don't fight the girls in the main story if I recall...but that's something you'd have to seek out. Both Alexei and Duke suffer a bit from "Sephiorth tropes" (long silver hair, highly regarded soldier etc), without either being nearly as distinct or memorable. Alexei has a lot of backstory with Schwann, Flynn and secondary villains, but doesn't show up much on screen. So his reveal is basically "oh that guy that showed up once or twice and was pretty cool is actually evil". There's also the trope of the over-complicated plan. The Herakles is presented as this unstoppable amphibious warship, took up so much of the Empire's resources, etc...and then is used as a feinting action and immediately sacrified...an action presented as an elaborate plan dating back years, but only used to thwart a small group of adventurers who'd only been operating for a few weeks/months, and the knights under Flynn's command...cool set pieces that didn't make much sense, or sell Alexei as much of a mastermind. And Duke...there's a lot. When you first meet him at Deidon hold, he's giving the most cliched monologue about "Why must humans live the life they do?" in his monotone voice. You can peg him right away as "Oh, this guy has divorced himself from humanity, and is going to try and murder everyone for some reason." Both Duke an Alexei remind me of this ProZD sketch: Now that said, I think once you see some of his motivations, he does get fleshed out a bit. I like at the end that he explains he'd helped the party because he saw them as the only humans who'd been willing to even try fixing things, and that was worth something, even if ultimately they decided on different solutions. His conflict with the party was ideological, not personal. I think a large part of where Vesperia suffers is "tell, don't show". A lot of characters' motivations and backgrounds date from the war 10 years previous, but almost none of it is shown. You get to see people talking about it, but that just doesn't have the same impact. Even with Patty/Aifrede's story, you see how she's being treated for being "Aifrede's Grandaughter", you find the graves resulting from the massacre that ended Aifrede's guild, you see her first mate transformed into a monster, and the exchange with him, and you get to know Patty quite well and see her persevere with a smile. They don't need to show a ton on screen, but what they do show is impactful The Don, I would say, makes a similar excellent impact, moreso than any of the villains. That flaw doesn't prevent it from being a super enjoyable game though. The party is fleshed out a lot, the world is colourful and vibrant, with lots of neat places to visit, etc. It just happens to be something I consider a shortcoming. The idea of 'no real main villain' is actually something I don't mind very much. Just differing goals, and smaller evils people inflict on each other. Honestly, I think I'd have been happier if there was no 'final battle' with Duke before they resolved their differences, but that too is an anime/JRPG trope. Spoiler for Tales of Xillia 1 & 2 For something similar to Duke, but with superior execution in my opinion, I'd point to King Gaius from Tales of Xillia 1 & 2. Definitely an antagonist, but much more empathetic/charismatic, and his goals are clear and understandable. There's a similar mutual respect, but it is still credible for him to serve as the first game's final boss...but also be a party member in the second.
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dschult3
CGR Undertow Groupie
The true heir to the Monado.
Posts: 2,765
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Post by dschult3 on Nov 10, 2020 21:51:44 GMT
A great in depth analysis All this talk about the game is making me want to play it again. It is really funny, though. I got this and Final Fantasy X at the same time, and I really didn't think I would give a damn about Vesparia. This turned out to be the better of the two. It is always good to try new things, even if you have your doubts.
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Post by Imperial Khador on Nov 10, 2020 23:40:04 GMT
Heh. Well on the bright side, if you replay it, you have have access to the grade shop. 2x xp makes a big difference, to say nothing of 10x xp.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Dec 6, 2020 13:13:01 GMT
Some of these traditional on going RPGs should get their own Anime shows too, they definitely have the material for it.
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Pimpjira
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Post by Pimpjira on Dec 7, 2020 5:32:24 GMT
Some of these traditional on going RPGs should get their own Anime shows too, they definitely have the material for it. Tales of Vesperia got a movie. Tales of Zestiria got a show I believe, but I haven't seen it or played the game.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Dec 7, 2020 6:16:43 GMT
Awesome, thanks for the share.
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Post by Imperial Khador on Dec 7, 2020 12:31:00 GMT
Zestiria's show is a bit of a mixed bag. Took a few major departures from the game...some worked, some didn't, and takes a weird 2-episode break where it becomes an animated series about the thousands-of-years-before Tales of Berseria, before resuming and never coming back to that scenario again.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Dec 7, 2020 15:28:33 GMT
Thanks for the heads up. I would still check it out. Heck I would watch any major RPG franchise Anime show if they have it.
Fire Emblem, Shin Megami Tensei, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Ys, Phantasy Star, Star Ocean, Paper Mario, Chrono, Xeno, Mana, Breath Of Fire, Shining, Mother, Front Mission, SaGa, Suikoden, Ogre Battle, Drakengard, Parasite Eve, Valkyria Chronicles, NieR, Dragon's Dogma, you name it.
The only ones I would probably skip would be Pokémon, and Digimon, but almost everything else I would watch. I remember watching Swort Art Online and having a good time back in the day.
I think I heard Tales of Symphonia had a movie or something of the sort, but maybe it was just a fan thing.
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dschult3
CGR Undertow Groupie
The true heir to the Monado.
Posts: 2,765
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Post by dschult3 on Mar 31, 2021 13:24:21 GMT
Pimpjira, (or anyone else in this thread) have you seen First Strike yet? Since listening to "A Vow of Unity," on YouTube, my feed has been flooded with clips for the film. I don't have a subscription to funimation (perhaps I should?), so I was thinking about picking up the BluRay if it was worth it.
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Post by Imperial Khador on Mar 31, 2021 19:38:44 GMT
I remember it being pretty decent, if you enjoyed Vesperia. I don't know if I would pick up the bluray, but I've been trying to avoid picking up more physical media
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Mar 31, 2021 19:56:09 GMT
I've been trying to avoid picking up more physical media What happened?
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Post by Imperial Khador on Mar 31, 2021 22:00:22 GMT
I had to move it too many times for my liking. Less stuff to move next time.
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Pimpjira
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Post by Pimpjira on Mar 31, 2021 23:02:30 GMT
Pimpjira , (or anyone else in this thread) have you seen First Strike yet? Since listening to "A Vow of Unity," on YouTube, my feed has been flooded with clips for the film. I don't have a subscription to funimation (perhaps I should?), so I was thinking about picking up the BluRay if it was worth it. I haven't seen it, but maybe I should if it's on Funi. Btw if you go through the PS4 app and you're a new subscriber right now you can get an extra three months + the normal 14 days. If you aren't a new subscriber, just use a new email like I did. XD It's part of Sony's Play at Home promotion(they are also a bunch of free games right now for PS4 and PSVR) so I don't think you can take advantage of it from PC(although you should be able to watch it on any supported device once the free trial is started).
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