Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales?

stratogustav
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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 23, 2017 18:22:20 GMT via Tapatalk

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Post by stratogustav on Dec 23, 2017 18:22:20 GMT

I decided to move this topic to this section to not take away attention from the Walt Disney thread. On that thread Cervantes brought up an interesting player for Sega's cards in the market back in the Saturn days, Bernie Stolar.

In my opinion he is responsible for the PlayStation One coming on top on that generation and also for making the PlayStation One look like a brand new RPG machine in the eyes of the Western market with what it felt like hundreds of JRPGs translated in comparison to the Sega Saturn that had pretty much none.

With him on charge, the Saturn focused more on arcade games, but the problem is that the PSOne did as well. PlayStation One had titles like the Street Fighter Alpha games, the Street Fighter EX games, the X-Men games, the Marvel games, Super Gem Fighting Mini Mix, Rival Schools, etc., and as consequence the market for the Saturn end up limited with his policies.

So the PlayStation end up looking more appealing to the general market, not only because it looked like an evolved Super Nintendo, but also because it had everything.

It had mascot games like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro, horror games like Resident Evil and Silent Hill, mech games like Armored Core and Omega Boost, sports games like Gran Turismo and FIFA, action games like Tomb Raider and Dino Crisis, fighting games like Darkstalkers and Tekken, shmups like RayStorm and RayCrisis, rhythm games like PaRappa The Rapper and Dance Dance Revolution, shooting games like Medal Of Honor and Time Crisis, stealth games like Rainbow Six and Metal Gear Solid, 2D games like Castlevania Symphony Of The Night, Mega Man 8, Mega Man X4, Mega Man X5, Mega Man X6, Metal Slug X, Mortal Kombat Mythologies, Strider 2, and without a question it had RPGs such as:

- Arc The Lad
- Arc The Lad II
- Arc The Lad III
- Arc The Lad Monster Tournament
- Atelier Elie
- Atelier Marie Plus
- Alundra
- Alundra 2
- Azure Dreams
- Battle Hunter
- Bealphareth
- Beyond The Beyond
- Blue Breaker
- Brave Fencer Musashi
- Breath Of Fire III
- Breath Of Fire IV
- Brigandine
- Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon
- Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon 2
- Chrono Cross
- Dewprism
- Digimon World
- Digimon World 2
- Digimon World 3
- Dragon Quest IV
- Dragon Valor
- Dragon Warrior VII
- Deception Invitation To Darkness
- Embrace In The Sand
- Epica Stella
- Final Fantasy Origins
- Final Fantasy Chronicles
- Final Fantasy IV
- Final Fantasy V
- Final Fantasy VI
- Final Fantasy VII
- Final Fantasy VIII
- Final Fantasy IX
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- First Queen IV
- Front Mission
- Front Mission 2
- Front Mission 3
- Front Mission Alternative
- Grandia
- Guardian's Crusade
- Jade Cocoon
- Kartia The World Of Fate
- King's Field
- King's Field II
- King's Field III
- Koudelka
- Legend Of Dragoon
- Legend Of Heroes III
- Legend Of Heroes IV
- Legend Of Legaia
- Legend Of Mana
- Legend Of The River King
- Lunar Silver Star Story
- Marl Kingdom 2 Little Princess
- Oasis Road
- Parasite Eve
- Parasite Eve II
- Persona
- Persona 2
- Popolocrois
- Rhapsody A Musical Adventure
- SaGa Frontier
- SaGa Frontier II
- Shadow Tower
- Spectral Tower
- Spectral Tower II
- Star Ocean The Second Story
- Suikoden
- Suikoden II
- Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together
- Tales Of Destiny
- Tales Of Eternia
- Threads Of Fate
- Thousand Arms
- Vagrant Story
- Valkyrie Profile
- Vandal Hearts
- Vandal Hearts II
- Vanguard Bandits
- Wild Arms
- Wild Arms 2
- Xenogears
- ... and many more

On the other hand the Saturn had pretty much nothing other than Panzer Dragoon and a few more like Sakura Wars and the Shining games. This is why every time there is a discussion when you want to exclude JRPGs you say that you are going to use Bernie Stolar's rule, which basically means no RPGs.

It makes sense for the PSOne for having that many JRPGs as the PSOne was basically the natural evolution of the Super Nintendo, or at least that's how it was designed from the beginning, not only they looked similar in color and in controllers, let's not forget also that the Super Nintendo was already a RPG machine of its own with many popular JRPG titles like:

- Arcana
- Brain Lord
- Breath Of Fire
- Breath Of Fire II
- Chrono Trigger
- EarthBound
- Final Fatansy IV
- Final Fantasy Mystic Quest
- Final Fantasy VI
- Harvest Moon
- Illusion Of Gaia
- Legend Of The Seven Stars aka Super Mario RPG
- Lufia II Rise Of The Sinistrals
- Mystic Ark
- Ogre Battle The March Of The Black Queen
- Paladin's Quest
- Robotrek
- Romancing SaGa
- Secret Of Mana
- Soul Blazer
- Tales Of Phantasia
- Terranigma
- The 7th Saga

And those are only the popular ones. It had many more like Genghis Khan, Inindo, Nobunaga's Ambition, Romance Of The Three Kingdoms, and Uncharted Waters. So it makes sense that evolution took place with the PSOne and sadly for those that love the genre the Saturn missed on that opportunity because of Stolar's policy.

By the way, props to anyone that had finished most of those RPG games. I can't imagine the amount of hours that would take. Maybe teddykongcountry could make it happen in 2018. I wonder if this could be done within a year. I would say it has to be similar to reading a bunch of books as these games have a lot of text in them.

However the question remains, was Stolar secretly working for Sony still? Did he just disliked RPGs so much that he assumed everyone would disliked them as well? Was he the cause why the Saturn ruined Sega's reputation in the Western market? What are your thoughts? Why did the Saturn failed to the point that it even affected the consumer's trust in the Dreamcast before it was even released?

Cervantes
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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 23, 2017 20:08:25 GMT

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Post by Cervantes on Dec 23, 2017 20:08:25 GMT

Although I think he made some very terrible decisions and was generally not good as SoA's CEO (Tom Kalinske forever!), there were too many reasons for the Saturn failure, and these reasons existed before Stolar was even in charge. In my opinion, the Saturn died the moment they announced on that ill-fated E3 that it was already available for $399 (the surprise launch), and then Sony went on stage with just one thing to say: "$299". That was the death blow.

Of course, besides the price, the surprise launch meant it had only very few games for months and these games were unoptimized (Virtua Fighter 1 was a disaster, Daytona USA had lousy draw distance and framerate problems). I mean, Panzer Dragoon was probably the only game that truly made the Saturn look promising, and, being a rail-shooter, it's a short game that doesn't appeal to everyone.

Then there is the famously complicated Saturn's architecture and the 3d that used quads instead of triangles.

That said, Stolar's mistaken assumptions regarding the sales of RPG titles meant the Saturn did even worse in the US than it could have done, as RPGs went on to become huge sellers in that period. In Japan, one of the reasons the Saturn did better than the N64 was because of series like Sakura Wars and the release of Grandia. Grandia was more hyped than we remember it nowadays - I was just reading about how Gamespot gave a review for the JP version and praised it above FF7, hyping it to the heavens, so it was supposed to be a very expected launch. But then the Saturn US version was cancelled, they toned down the game for the Playstation and, after a considerable delay, it was released without too much fanfarre. I think if the Saturn version was released at the right time with a good marketing campaign it could become a good seller - not on FF7 level, mind you, but it could have kept the Saturn alive for some more time.

Also, as I commented in the other topic, the lack of the Shining Force 3 sequels, Dragon Force, the low key release of Panzer Dragoon Saga (only 30k copies, that's insanely low for such a high profile game), the falling out with Working Designs, all this meant the US Saturn lacked RPGs in a time when the genre diferentiated a successful console from a failed one. It still wouldn't have saved the Saturn, though, so while Stolar may have made the situation a little worse, he was not the one who killed Sega.

And to give some props to the guy, the Dreamcast release in the US was flawless, although some people say the fact that he insisted on the price being lower than it should - selling every console at a loss - contributed to worsen Sega's finances, so I don't know what to think about that.

stratogustav
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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 23, 2017 21:51:28 GMT via Tapatalk Cervantes likes this

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Post by stratogustav on Dec 23, 2017 21:51:28 GMT

Very well put Cervantes, and very informative about the Dreamcast's release price. I did not know of his involvement in suggesting a lower price for it.

I can't really blame the guy for not understanding the relevance of RPGs. I personally felt the same way. For me arcade games occupied the most important position, and as a consequence I never gave RPGs a chance. Little did I know they were already quite relevant and accepted by a huge amount of players at the time.

In fact when the Dreamcast failed arcade gaming simultaneously failed in the West as if the Dreamcast failure caused publishers fear to keep supporting the market, while RPGs kept thriving, specially on handheld systems.

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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 26, 2017 18:11:35 GMT

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Post by Pimpjira on Dec 26, 2017 18:11:35 GMT

Was it Bernie Stolar's idea to surprise release the Saturn suddenly and piss off a lot of stores/publishers/developers? Was it his idea that japanese games are bad and stopped so many from being localized?

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stratogustav
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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 27, 2017 1:15:07 GMT via Tapatalk

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Post by stratogustav on Dec 27, 2017 1:15:07 GMT

Dec 26, 2017 18:11:35 GMT Pimpjira said:

Was it Bernie Stolar's idea to surprise release the Saturn suddenly and piss off a lot of stores/publishers/developers? Was it his idea that japanese games are bad and stopped so many from being localized?

I know the second one was definitely him, but not all Japanese games, only RPGs. The first I don't know. Maybe Cervantes knows. I think he wasn't onboard yet for that one.

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Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 27, 2017 3:02:02 GMT

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Post by Cervantes on Dec 27, 2017 3:02:02 GMT

Pimpjira - He was not at Sega at the time of the surprise launch - that one was a decision from Hayao Nakayama, from Sega of Japan.

The decision to restrict localizations was by Stolar - specifically, he focused more 3d games, reason why so many very impressive 2d Saturn games like Princess Crown, Silhouette Mirage, Nanatsu Kaze no Shima Monogatari and plenty of fighting games and shooters went unlocalized; and also wasn't interested in RPGs. It was such a serious problem that Working Designs went to work exclusively with Sega while he was at Sony, then had to go back to Sony (and abandoned Sega) when Stolar was hired by Sega. Camelot Software Planning also abandoned Sega because of the difficulty to publish Shining Force 3 (only Scenario 1 was localized) and went to work with Nintendo on Golden Sun and some Mario sports games.

Balder Supreme Overlord Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch Posts: 6,820	Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales? Dec 28, 2017 14:03:56 GMT via mobile scipioafricanus likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Balder on Dec 28, 2017 14:03:56 GMT It's such a tragedy that the Saturn failed. It had so much potential and so many great (but limited released) games that never saw the day over here.
	"All I had to do in return is watch some Marvel TV-series" - Balder 1996-2018 "I fucking did it, but at the cost of countless hours that could be spent on much more productive things as... ah fuck, I'd just watch some other stupid shit instead, I'm sure of it". - 2021

Was Bernie Stolar responsible for Saturn's lack of sales?

Post by stratogustav on Dec 23, 2017 18:22:20 GMT

Post by Cervantes on Dec 23, 2017 20:08:25 GMT

Post by stratogustav on Dec 23, 2017 21:51:28 GMT

Post by Pimpjira on Dec 26, 2017 18:11:35 GMT

Post by stratogustav on Dec 27, 2017 1:15:07 GMT

Post by Cervantes on Dec 27, 2017 3:02:02 GMT

Post by Balder on Dec 28, 2017 14:03:56 GMT

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