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Post by spidershinobi on Feb 18, 2018 19:02:05 GMT
Recently I've been in that mood to enjoy fantasy settings - yes, I get that mood a lot - and I have been noticing that many of my favorite games deviate a lot from the Dungeons & Dragons standards for dragons ( link), which is the most used source to define what dragons are. As examples we have the 3 dragons from Black Tiger/Black Dragon, a blue one, red one, and black one, but all 3 of them are fire spitting dragons as one would expect; and another example would be the Game of Thrones, in which some people have raised the question whether the dragons aren't just wyverns, but since the author called them dragons that's what they are. Of course there are several other examples to find. Well, I don't really like the D&D standards for dragons, but they may still serve as inspiration. So, the purpose of this topic is to discuss how we could write them. Picture yourself as an author who intends to include dragons in some form in a story/setting, how are you going to set your rules for their existence? |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Feb 18, 2018 19:45:26 GMT
For that, I would absolutely recommend the first saga of Rhapsody. It is the best there is, it is not video game related but the music will touch your sense of purpose and accomplishment while making you emotional for it at the same time. It is outstanding. The first saga consist of: Legendary Tales: Symphony Of Enchanted Lands: Dawn Of Victory: Rain Of A Thousand Flames: Power Of The Dragonflame: The Dark Secret (Symphony Of Enchanted Lands II) Feat. Christopher Lee (Ex-Count Dracula, Ex-Saruman in the Lord Of The Rings, and Ex-Count Dooku in Star Wars):  The EP for that album was this:  And the singles from that saga are: Emerald Sword: Holy Thunderforce: The Magic Of The Wizard's Dream: After that a new saga begins with Triumph Or Agony, now under the name Rhapsody Of Fire, which is also an amazing saga, but not as legendary as the first one. I still enjoy it though.  If I have to choose my favorite albums, they are Power Of The Dragonflame and Dawn Of Victory. There are also two 10 out if 10 albums by the guitar player Luca Turilli that are musically towards a more futuristic setting that I also recommend. Which are also some of my favorite albums ever. King Of The Nordic Twilight: Prophet Of The Last Eclipse: The two singles are also great. The Ancient Forest Of Elves: Demonheart: Those are his true Power ones, after those his music is still great, but more Gothic oriented. I own all of those and the Rhapsody ones, all on physical form, even all the singles, I became a true fan. Rhapsody is probably my 4th favorite band ever after Stratovarius, Helloween, and Angra. I love Dark Moor as well. |
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Feb 18, 2018 20:12:33 GMT
I just love how creative dragons are in the Panzer Dragoon series. First of all, they're actually bio-weapons genetically engineered by an ancient civilization. Second, they shoot "arrows of light", which is awesome. Third, their design is just very elegant and completely different from any other dragons out there, with unusual color choices (blue dragons), only two legs instead of four and that bone-like armor. Also, they can morph during battles and it looks really nice:
Other depiction of dragons that I like is the 80s movie Dragonslayer. The dragon itself is very "standard"; most importantly is how the movie treats it, the entire atmosphere surrounding its appearance. Basically, the movie depicts it as if it was a "terrifying horror movie monster" instead of a "fantastical creature in a fantasy setting", so it's closer to Alien than your standard D&D fare.
Last, there is Falcor from The Never Ending Story, a luck dragon that is designed as, basically, a flying, talking dog.
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Post by spidershinobi on Feb 18, 2018 20:53:50 GMT
I understand that the word "Dragon" is stimulating, but note that you guys aren't as on topic as you may have assumed...  |
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Feb 18, 2018 23:28:11 GMT
spidershinobi - Yeah, we ended up talking more about aour favourite depictions of dragons instead of discussing how we would write them into a story.  Dragons are just awesome, man! For the question itself (how we could write them), I would probably go for that "Dragonslayer" example: I would go for a terrifying, ancient and mysterious creature, basically a monster; humans would know nothing about it besides "don't walk over its territory, terrible things happen there". As dragons are fantasy creatures by their own nature, I would not try to explain their physiology or behaviour, neither try to make too much sense about why they are there or how they came to be. Basically, I like the idea of dragons as horror monsters and I prefer low fantasy settings were people are short lived and oppressed by both human and fantastical forces - so the dragon would be a force of oppression, basically.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Feb 19, 2018 1:18:34 GMT
In that case I would make a story about some kind of angels of war that measure their power by some kind of energy they call cosmos and can fly through space. They can also transform into more powerful beings when necessary. In battle some use swords and others straight up fists.
They are the ones in charge to keep balance in the Universe, but they serve gods of major power, capable to create and destroy entire galaxies.
They emit some sort of light around them when they power up, and when they fly there is a visible burst of energy that surrounds them when they take off. Sometimes you can see them with wings, but except of feathers these wings are luminous and look like part of their cosmic energy, the same energy stars are made of.
They visit different planets on different missions, for example to compile information whether the planet deserves an end because there is no hope for their beings to progress and all they are doing is regressing, or whether the planet can still live on because their population shows characteristics of progress.
They also have ranks, some are guards and some are explorers among other things. When a planet needs to be wiped out they shoot some sort of radioactive power from the sky that like fire can disseminate entire cities and even worlds.
In this Universe there are powerful dragons, some almighty with 7 heads and wings that have magical powers, they can grant wishes and don't know the difference between right or wrong, and they can be controlled by anyone to satisfy their desires, including starting pestilences and plagues.
Some of these dragons are so powerful that an entire army of angels of war may be required to face them in combat. In some cases that would have to happen because these dragons can be used to fight against the harmony of the Universe, and they can only be controlled by whoever manages to become the keeper of the seven keys required to access the power of one of these dragons.
There are good angels and bad angels, the good ones are defined because they are loyal to their gods, while the bad ones are rebellious ones that simply don't want to follow orders and are willing to do anything necessary to cause unbalance in the Universe, they are known as the fallen.
There are also cases when a regular human would have such a strength of belief in what they can do, that they would literally move mountains, merge continents and even slay a dragon that may be a treat to their world. They are known as the awaken and are very rare to find.
At the same time the human race is not the only one in the Universe, there are other races of beings, but humans are notoriously privileged in whatever solar system they are in because they were made to look similar to the gods.
Some humans, that for some reason have a clearer vision of reality, are not allowed to die and instead are taken in charriots of fire through the clouds to the heavens to other planets to grant them some sort if divine status. They call them saints and obtain powers that allow them to participate like generals in the angelic wars.
There are human civilizations across all the Universe and gods have similar personality traits humans do. These gods also have weakness to capital sins such as lust, and often lust for human females taking them as their wives.
When a human woman gives birth to a son of a god, the child can posses extraordinary characteristics such as creating worlds, destroying worlds, coming back from the death and bringing others back from the death as well. They can also grant immortality to mortals just like the gods are immortal, and even give them their own planet to control.
I just made all that up. You put me into full nerd mode with this conversation.
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Post by teddykongcountry on Feb 19, 2018 3:34:58 GMT
I've seen dragons handled really well and pretty poorly in storytelling.
It's common for writers to give dragons human qualities including the ability to communicate. I like the dragon in the mines of The Hobbit films (Smaug?) for being an intimidating force that also exploits extrasensory abilities. This adds to the mythical quality of the creature but pins it as a sort of god-figure for humans.
By contrast, I do not like the idea of humans that transform into dragons. One Fantasy writer, Piers Anthony, explored the idea of a woman who is a dragon and assumes human form in 'Ghost Writer in the Sky.' The human-side doesn't add much to the narrative aside from adding a party member who has perks. It reminded me of one of the characters in Fire Emblem Awakening who transforms into a dragon. While I appreciated it from a combat perspective, the transformation aspects did nothing for me story-wise.
I like to think of dragons as fierce, god-like creatures that strike fear in the hearts of men. There's a room in Shadowgate where you stumble on a dragon and have to play your options very carefully. That's the kind of dragon that I can respect.
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centipede
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Post by centipede on Feb 19, 2018 10:37:52 GMT
I understand that the word "Dragon" is stimulating, but note that you guys aren't as on topic as you may have assumed... Don't you know? Nothing turns guys on like a big fire-breathing dragon. I have a boner right now. Don't you? Look, write them as you will. In games and movies, there's fire dragons, ice dragons, lightning dragons, big dragons, human-sized bipedal dragons, dumb dragons, sentient Illuminati dragons, nice dragons from China, South American feathered serpents, dragon liches, Satan as 'The Dragon' in the Book of Revelation, dragons that are actually dinosaurs... ...in which some people have raised the question whether the dragons aren't just wyverns, but since the author called them dragons that's what they are.
Hmm. That's a bit like how "unicorn" is an old name for the one-horned rhino. Two animals (one-horned and two-horned) under a collective name ("rhino"). |
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billspreston
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Post by billspreston on Feb 20, 2018 0:32:17 GMT
This reminded me about a comic I wrote. The dragon in it was nigh immortal and nigh invulnerable, and could communicate to humans but it was nearing the end of its life (hence the nighs)
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Feb 22, 2018 4:21:24 GMT
Don't you know? Nothing turns guys on like a big fire-breathing dragon. I have a boner right now. Don't you? |
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Post by spidershinobi on Feb 22, 2018 21:24:51 GMT
I should have said before why I created this topic but the the first post would have been too long for everyone, but now that we got it going I guess it's fine for me to write super long posts, specially because a bunch of us are contributing. Back when I was a teen I used to play table RPGs, often times the game master being the creator of the settings. We used to experiment a lot during those days, and we actually only had one full, beginning to finish, campaign. Now the days are different, I don't get to play these games as much anymore, but I have always wanted to get back to it because one of my friends has been ready (though I'm not counting on it). In the end this may end up being more of a mental exercise than something I'll actually use, but I'm fine with that. So, I have never used dragons in my settings. We would never get to a point in which a dragon would be relevant, and for the one full campaign there was no reason for a dragon to be a thing in the story. But if I were to write dragons in any kind of story I make today, I'd hate to write myself into a corner, or introduce an element and misuse it. And that's why I'm coming for your opinions. Since this has been asked already, I have some main concerns when conceptualizing: - what kind of variation is pertinent;
- what separates ranks if they exist (such as D&D wyvern, drake and dragon);
- which individuals or groups communicate and/or present themselves in human shape.
Of course that a bunch of those would definitely vary from setting to setting, with the same setting showing variation depending on the nature of the story being told. Still, I'd hate to fall into a storytelling trap that would lead me to force the reader/player to "accept it because it's fantasy"; I'd much rather set a cohesive group of rules to allow me to build on top a story. Now let me begin talking about each one of your suggestions so we can get the exchange going. |
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Post by spidershinobi on Feb 22, 2018 22:06:14 GMT
One thing about me is that I tend to prefer going the mythology/folkloric route rather than the beloved Dungeons & Dragons route for writing dragons. I need to point out that the way different cultures view dragons tends to show some cultural habits, as for example the West tends to view dragons as large, fire-breathing winged lizards, even though none of those elements are the core of what a dragon is. A dragon is a serpent by definition. So this funny guy here is actually not inside the definition.I understand that the word "Dragon" is stimulating, but note that you guys aren't as on topic as you may have assumed... Don't you know? Nothing turns guys on like a big fire-breathing dragon. I have a boner right now. Don't you? You joke, but several times mythologies - specially the Greek one - contain stories that go into a seemingly porn territory. Remember when a female dragon had sex with Heracles? No? Yeah, that story is whack, and it poses either the question of Heracles being really thirsty or just not really being strong enough to repel one of them. In mythology dragons often feature human characteristics, and the rather erotic tendencies of greek mythology definitely show when it comes to female dragons. In addition to the need to titilate us since the beginning of times, there are sets of stories in which dragons aren't that far from humanity that they aren't blood-related, such as the case of Quingu, whose blood gave origin to humanity; his mother was the great sea herself, and I assume her name makes a lot of people think of something... So right now I'm just explaining myself and telling you guys about my troubles. |
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Post by spidershinobi on Feb 22, 2018 22:07:53 GMT
Cervantes Never watched that movie, but that trailer sure was modern! About the setting you described, it's actually great, and most of the time that's the best and safest way to present dragons. That's exactly the approach of Dragon's Dogma (and that part of the story is effective) and such approach can be noticed in Dragon's Crown too. But now that I just said this, there is the internal problem too. Yes, presenting the inner workings of a setting isn't always a good thing, but the author should have a clear idea of them. For example, we as consumers don't need to know what Mario listens to, but if you are making a story with Mario in it, you must know he is a big fan of high-techno Euro pop!
teddykongcountry Now, since you mentioned Fire Emblem Awakening I need to tell that you may have mistook what you saw. No human transforms into dragons in the series, but at the same time there's the issue that Awakening is a continuation of a storyline that had been written into the dead-ends of logic, so you have to turn off the brain to enjoy the story there. Just to give you an idea of how messed up the story in Fire Emblem tends to be, the GameCube game - Path of Radiance - featured a whole different continent with no relation to previous ones, and the dragons featured in that one don't share any of the rules of the previous ones because of how whack they were. Unfortunately the Radiant series only lasted 2 games, and so did good writing in Fire Emblem. Now, stratogustav , there's something interesting about your scenario. Reading all of it super fast makes it sound crazy, but I find it terribly familiar to the point that this may have been portrayed somewhere already. Actually, you should get on it because I'm sure that exact idea doesn't exist elsewhere! But I like that when you define that the scope for one of your settings as something that huge you're doing 1 thing that I like: settings your rules; and you can do another good one, that is presenting an audience with a slice of it without the need to tell the inner workings of it. But yeah, because your ideas revolve around arguably small characters or things having inflated capabilities you could definitely present a short slice of your world to an audience without touching those "cosmic" aspects. You could leave these galactic, grander aspects written between the lines.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Feb 23, 2018 1:53:54 GMT
Man, you just brought me back to good Therion songs with all those mythical references. Partcularly these songs:
The Draconian Trilogy (The Opening - Morning Star - Black Diamonds):
Blood Of Kingu:
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Feb 23, 2018 2:51:02 GMT
spidershinobi - Ah sure, I would have to understand it a lot, while leaving all this knowledge outside of the story. That I do agree with. I think I would treat it as an animal, after all; it would be seen as a mysterious force of oppression by the characters, but in reality I would be thinking of it as any other animal acting by instinct, hunting to survive and protect its territory - it would not act by malice, that would just be the human interpretation of it. And you have to watch Dragonslayer, it's pretty much my favourite depiction of a dragon and an unusual spin to the fantasy genre, with some VERY unexpected turns to the story. This discussion reminds me that I'm right now reading through "El Libro de los Seres Imaginarios" ["The Book of Imaginary Beings"], a catalogue written by Jorge Luis Borges, who is among the best 20th century writers; it's a bunch of very brief essays (2-3 pages) on fantastical beings from myth, literature, philosophy and religion, and the entire thing is very well written (albeit succinct) because, well, Borges; it mimicks the style of medieval bestiaries. In it, he includes a few different dragons and their mythologies. Here is an english version of the book. I like what he wrote in the preface: "We are as ignorant of the meaning of the dragon as we are of the meaning of the universe, but there is something in the dragon’s image that appeals to the human imagination, and so we find the dragon in quite distinct places and times. It is, so to speak, a necessary monster, not an ephemeral or accidental one, such as the three-headed chimera or the catoblepas." I recommend giving a read to the three entries directly about dragons: the Chinese Dragon, the Eastern Dragon and the Western Dragon. It shows up in other entries, but those are the main ones, and they're a short read.
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Dragons are just awesome, man!
