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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Jan 10, 2018 17:13:22 GMT
Spirit Bomb Akuma is a secret character who's banned in most tourneys anyway. Every other character aside from maybe Cammy is perfectly viable in a tournament setting, since SFII is less about tiers and more about matchups. That means Sagat, despite being top-tier, can easily get steamrolled by the likes of T.Hawk, or alot of other characters on the roster for that matter. SSF2T (the one that is usually played in tournaments) has actually become an incredibly broken game over time due to exploits found by long time players. It still manages to be more balanced than most fighting games because every character is viable.
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cobretti
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Post by cobretti on Jan 10, 2018 17:19:28 GMT
[^^^ Singing star Kylie Minogue portraying Cammy for Street Fighter in 1994.] Good lord she was smoking in the 90s. The way she ate that carrot in Bio Dome with Paulie Shore was pretty amazing.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Jan 10, 2018 17:44:36 GMT
the one female it has is weird looking with a bra on her head... Haha, now I can't unsee it! I suck at fighting games, but I always loved Street Fighter 2. Some characters are iconic (especially with the additions later), the moves are easy to execute and nice looking, the pixel art is beautiful for its time and it is balanced well enough. Also, its historical significance should always be taken into account: this game basically created the modern 2d fighting genre, and the way that moves are executed and combos work is still pretty much the same even nowadays. That's how much Capcom got right with this one: when things created by your game are almost unchanged twenty seven years later, you know that you made a great game. Still prefer SF 3 Third Strike, though. And Garou: Mark of the Wolves, that is pretty much the best 2d fighting game in my admittedly ignorant opinion.
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Balder
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Post by Balder on Jan 10, 2018 17:54:46 GMT
the one female it has is weird looking with a bra on her head... Haha, now I can't unsee it! I suck at fighting games, but I always loved Street Fighter 2. Some characters are iconic (especially with the additions later), the moves are easy to execute and nice looking, the pixel art is beautiful for its time and it is balanced well enough. Also, its historical significance should always be taken into account: this game basically created the modern 2d fighting genre, and the way that moves are executed and combos work is still pretty much the same even nowadays. That's how much Capcom got right with this one: when things created by your game are almost unchanged twenty seven years later, you know that you made a great game. Still prefer SF 3 Third Strike, though. And Garou: Mark of the Wolves, that is pretty much the best 2d fighting game in my admittedly ignorant opinion. But is Garou worth the price?
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Jan 10, 2018 19:41:45 GMT
What is it with people here? I never played Street Fighter until some time in 2015 and that shit ain't outdated one bit. The character rooster is unique and awesome. What fighting games have better rosters? I'm gonna chalk it up to hipster negationism. If people prefer other fighting games, that's fine, but saying that Street Fighter 2 wasn't even good in its own time is just false. Overall, it's pretty good but I think we can all agree the series started going downhill after Street Fighter 1.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Jan 10, 2018 20:53:19 GMT
Balancing in most tournament fighting games is relative. winnersdontusedrugs had some pretty good insight on it. It is also important to add that balancing can be done in many different ways, like designing frame data anf hit boxes from the conception of the game. However you can also resource on nerfing and buffing the characters. Buffing in particular is a great way to balance a game because it enhances the gameplay experience. That is why Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 and Capcom Vs. SNK 2 are regarded as some of the best fighting games of all time. The balancing in those games is slightly different than the balancing on modern Guilty Gear and BlazBlue games, but they still balance themselves out because the amount of buffing demands from the player planning and strategy while knowlege of the attack and defense resources of each character. In Street Fighter for example there are characters that are harder to use, ot at least have some moves that are harder to perform in certain fighting scenarios. When these moves can be done on the fly and performed properly and with planning, the seemingly weaker characters can outperform a top tier character. At last it is important to consider that psychology and intuition play a role in tournaments and that having the most skills in controlling a match through provoking and causing setups while using your intuition can overcome any other obstacles you may have as a player. No company can possibly balance those aspects because they are part of each individual experience and dedication to the game. So those games may appear completely unbalanced at first glance but when you take into consideration the metagame those games level out to create the best possible spectacle that no other games can. Like I said before, Street Fighter II may not be the best fighting game in history, but it is definitely the most important, and influential. Gameplay-wise it doesn't even make it to my top 10 which is: 1. Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 New Age Of Heroes 2. Capcom Vs. SNK 2 Mark Of The Millennium 3. The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match 4. Super Gem Fighter Mini Mix 5. The King Of Fighters '98 Ultimate Match 6. Street Fighter III Third Strike Fight For The Future 7. Garou Mark Of The Wolves 8. Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom Ultimate All-Stars 9. The Last Blade 2 10. Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus R However I recognize the game is more relevant than all of those games because they would not exist the way they are without it.
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cobretti
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Post by cobretti on Jan 10, 2018 21:49:00 GMT
Balancing in most tournament fighting games is relative. winnersdontusedrugs had some pretty good insight on it. It is also important to add that balancing can be done in many different ways, like designing frame data anf hit boxes from the conception of the game. However you can also resource on nerffing and buffing the characters. Buffing in particular is a great way to balance a game because it enhances the gameplay experience. That is why Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 and Capcom Vs. SNK 2 are regarded as some of the best fighting games of all time. The balancing in those games is slightly different than the balancing on modern Guilty Gear and BlazBlue games, but they still balance themselves out because the amount of buffing demands from the player planning and strategy while knowlege of the attack and defense resources of each character. In Street Fighter for example there are characters that are harder to use, ot at least have some moves that are harder to perform in certain fighting scenarios. When these moves can be done on the fly and performed properly and with planning, the seemingly weaker characters can outperform a top tier character. At last it is important to consider that psychology and intuition play a role in tournaments and that having the most skills in controlling a match through provoking and causing setups while using your intuition can overcome any other obstacles you may have as a player. No company can possibly balance those aspects because they are part of each individual experience and dedication to the game. Like I said before, Street Fighter II may not be the best fighting game in history, but it is definitely the most important, and influential. Gameplay-wise it doesn't even make it to my top 10 which is: 1. Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 New Age Of Heroes 2. Capcom Vs. SNK 2 Mark Of The Millennium 3. The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match 4. Super Gem Fighter Mini Mix 5. The King Of Fighters '98 Ultimate Match 6. Street Fighter III Third Strike Fight For The Future 7. Garou Mark Of The Wolves 8. Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom Ultimate All-Stars 9. The Last Blade 2 10. Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus R However I recognize the game is more relevant than all of those games because they would not exist the way they are without it. The balance in Marvel vs Capcom 2 was pretty crap to be honest. Only a few characters of the 50+ in the game were usable if you were trying to play competitively.
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scipioafricanus
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Post by scipioafricanus on Jan 10, 2018 22:54:34 GMT
[^^^ Singing star Kylie Minogue portraying Cammy for Street Fighter in 1994.] Good lord she was smoking in the 90s. The way she ate that carrot in Bio Dome with Paulie Shore was pretty amazing.
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cobretti
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Post by cobretti on Jan 11, 2018 1:35:56 GMT
Good lord she was smoking in the 90s. The way she ate that carrot in Bio Dome with Paulie Shore was pretty amazing.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Jan 11, 2018 2:34:44 GMT
The balance in Marvel vs Capcom 2 was pretty crap to be honest. Only a few characters of the 50+ in the game were usable if you were trying to play competitively. Yes, at a straighforward level you can argue that it is one of the most unbalanced games ever because everyone is super buff in comparison to their original games and their unique specials are very different for each character, which is also the reason that makes it one of the most fun games ever. I would say only Mugen is arguably better, but that game was never official. Balance in a straightforward way is what ruins fighters. If you take Ryu Vs. Ken in Street Fighter 1, the fight will be perfectly balanced, but it will also be perfectly boring because there is no challenge that requires creativity and mind play, it is all about doing things first. With Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 you have god tier characters like Storm, Magneto, or Cable for example. Cable has a bean that goes instantly all across the screen and gives him an incredible reach. So when you saw people at the arcades finding ways to deal against those situations using lower tier characters themselves it was simply spectacular and it always moved the crowd enthusiastically behind their shoulders. Also most people never even tried to learn a character, they were straight going with the normal attacks which is fine, but were wasting their bars as soon as they got a hyper. As oppose of those that never gave up and were able to use even the last of their resources. The ones that figured them out always stole the show, particularly when the situation would seen flat out impossible to deal with for a regular player, and that is what made it so special.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Jan 11, 2018 6:53:04 GMT
Spirit Bomb Akuma is a secret character who's banned in most tourneys anyway. Every other character aside from maybe Cammy is perfectly viable in a tournament setting, since SFII is less about tiers and more about matchups. That means Sagat, despite being top-tier, can easily get steamrolled by the likes of T.Hawk, or alot of other characters on the roster for that matter. SSF2T (the one that is usually played in tournaments) has actually become an incredibly broken game over time due to exploits found by long time players. It still manages to be more balanced than most fighting games because every character is viable. That's odd, I don't remember Cammy being OP... Out of curiosity, could you give me some examples of what you consider unbalanced fighting games?
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Jan 11, 2018 7:40:47 GMT
Adding to my previous comment, another reason why buffing is ideal is because it adds those resources I was talking about that are needed for lower tier characters to utilize against the toughest competitors while remaining lower tier and taking every one by surprise. Street Fighter II received this treatment in the Alpha games, and ultimately in the core Marvel Vs. Capcom series.
About the AI on Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 that was brought up, this example applies perfectly because the reason why it is still doable even for me to defeat that high level of AI on a regular basis are because the moves resources in UMK3 characters is significantly larger than the resources on MKII characters. Hence beating MKII AI is significantly more complicated because all you have going for you is speed of inputs and if you fail you are done for the entire match.
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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Jan 11, 2018 10:42:13 GMT
Spirit Bomb I mean that Cammy is one of the weaker characters on the roster. As for fighting games I consider unbalanced, some that stick out to me would be MVC2, SVC Chaos, 3rd Strike, Melee . I actually like most of these games though. I'm not sure I would exactly consider SSF2T the benchmark for balancing, but I think what helps make it so balanced is that every character can actually be hilariously overpowered in their own way.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Jan 11, 2018 23:21:20 GMT
As for fighting games I consider unbalanced, some that stick out to me would be MVC2, SVC Chaos, 3rd Strike, Melee . I actually like most of these games though. You forgot MVC1, Hulk and Captain America were beasts in that game. Also in the regular MK3 Kabal was unstoppable while in MK Trilogy it was Noob Saibot that had a big advantage, but was also stoppable.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Jan 12, 2018 20:04:14 GMT
winnersdontusedrugs Ok, but did you really mean it when you said "Overall, it's pretty good but I think we can all agree the series started going downhill after Street Fighter 1"? Was that a typo? Because I could of sworn I heard you rant about how terrible SF 1 was in the first SF discussion thread. :/
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