Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Dec 7, 2018 21:25:02 GMT
The Incredibles is a good and classic film because anyone can watch and enjoy it. Age doesn't matter. That goes with quite a few Pixar films, like Toy Story. But this is one of their tops. The other one... not so much. Also despite it being an early CGI film, it still holds so well up, that it's still just as watchable today as when it came out. |
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MeleeMonk
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Part-time gamer, full-time environmentalist, and member of PAPO (People Against Palm Oil)
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Post by MeleeMonk on Dec 8, 2018 1:31:50 GMT
In what ways was The Incredibles ambitious? In a similar way that Spirits Within was ambitious now that I think about it. New CGI tech, bold visual setpieces not usually seen in CGI movies at the time, a shitload of money spent on a movie that had no guarantee of selling (Brad bird just came off of his most recent box office bomb, the movie was one of the first Disney movies to feature all humans, it had an unusual 60's aesthetic, etc). Also, this is one of the first CGI movies that managed to have faces deform and move in such a way that resembled 2d cartoons, not to mention all the improvement done with hair and cloth physics, fire/water effects, etc.
The thing is that the Incredibles is actually a good movie, that also seems to have had more of an impact on CGI movies as a whole. About that first point: The Incredibles was a pixar film aimed at a family demographic, whereas Final Fantasy Spirits Within was aimed at young adults like most anime. Broadening the appeal of a film is a tactic that has never struck me as ambitious, not to mention Pixar films have always been marketed as family films. About the second point: Final Fantasy The Spirits Within did all those visual techniques just as well (debatably even better) even though it came out four years before The Incredibles. We could argue on and on about which film is better. But let me remind everyone that this thread was specifically asking which film has greater art direction and ambition, so lets not get off topic. I don't think it was nice of you to denounce this comparison as me "sucking Japan's cock" when in actuality I'm just highlighting what Spirits Within did really well over this american animated film. Give credit where it's due. |
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MeleeMonk
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
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Post by MeleeMonk on Dec 8, 2018 1:32:59 GMT
In what ways was The Incredibles ambitious? Pushing CGI technology forward. That was a trash-tier argument. Don't waste my time, please. |
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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Dec 8, 2018 3:44:26 GMT
About that first point: The Incredibles was a pixar film aimed at a family demographic, whereas Final Fantasy Spirits Within was aimed at young adults like most anime. Broadening the appeal of a film is a tactic that has never struck me as ambitious, not to mention Pixar films have always been marketed as family films. Family film doesn't equal instant profit, especially when the budget of the movie is so high. Iron Giant was the movie Brad Bird previously worked on and it bombed despite being a family film. Besides, most fans of Final Fantasy were teens & young adults anyway, who else were they going to aim it to? Making a film for a broad audience doesn't mean a lack of ambition, the same way a film for teens & young adults doesn't automatically equal ambition.
About the second point: Final Fantasy The Spirits Within did all those visual techniques just as well (debatably even better) even though it came out four years before The Incredibles. They definitely didn't do facial animation as well, nor did they do hair & cloth as well. I don't know where you would even get that from, since most characters in Spirits Within are wearing bodysuits or armor, and one of the only recurring characters without short hair is Aki and her hair moves like it's underwater half the time. I don't think it was nice of you to denounce this comparison as me "sucking Japan's cock" when in actuality I'm just highlighting what Spirits Within did really well over this american animated film. Give credit where it's due. If this was a one time deal with you I wouldn't think much of it, but you have a habit of cherrypicking and/or bitterly shitting on American animation while praising mediocre Japanese work. Spirits Within is not some hidden gem or unsung hero in the world of CGI animation. It's a garbage movie and the Incredibles destroys it in just about every meaningful way, including art design. And before you tell me that it's an American Disney/Pixar movie and there's no way it can have the ambition of a glorious Nippon movie folded over 1000 times, do some more reading up on the development of Incredibles. There was a painstaking amount of time and money spent trying to achieve things that no other CGI movie had at the time. |
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,827
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Post by Balder on Dec 8, 2018 10:43:53 GMT
Pushing CGI technology forward. That was a trash-tier argument. Don't waste my time, please. What the fuck man. Stop wasting everyone's time dude and concede. I would specify my argument again, but winnersdontusedrugs nailed it. Just read his comment twice. It's just like America vs Japan in WW2, you gotta drop the bomb twice before they understand they've lost. |
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,571
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Post by scipioafricanus on Dec 8, 2018 13:49:15 GMT
That was a trash-tier argument. Don't waste my time, please. What the fuck man. Stop wasting everyone's time dude and concede. I would specify my argument again, but winnersdontusedrugs nailed it. Just read his comment twice. It's just like America vs Jaoan in WW2, you gotta drop the bomb twice before they understand they've lost.  |
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Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Dec 8, 2018 17:24:54 GMT
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,827
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Post by Balder on Dec 8, 2018 19:28:43 GMT
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MeleeMonk
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Part-time gamer, full-time environmentalist, and member of PAPO (People Against Palm Oil)
Posts: 3,651
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Post by MeleeMonk on Dec 9, 2018 5:43:02 GMT
About that first point: The Incredibles was a pixar film aimed at a family demographic, whereas Final Fantasy Spirits Within was aimed at young adults like most anime. Broadening the appeal of a film is a tactic that has never struck me as ambitious, not to mention Pixar films have always been marketed as family films. Family film doesn't equal instant profit, especially when the budget of the movie is so high. Iron Giant was the movie Brad Bird previously worked on and it bombed despite being a family film. Besides, most fans of Final Fantasy were teens & young adults anyway, who else were they going to aim it to? Making a film for a broad audience doesn't mean a lack of ambition, the same way a film for teens & young adults doesn't automatically equal ambition.
About the second point: Final Fantasy The Spirits Within did all those visual techniques just as well (debatably even better) even though it came out four years before The Incredibles. I don't think it was nice of you to denounce this comparison as me "sucking Japan's cock" when in actuality I'm just highlighting what Spirits Within did really well over this american animated film. Give credit where it's due. If this was a one time deal with you I wouldn't think much of it, but you have a habit of cherrypicking and/or bitterly shitting on American animation while praising mediocre Japanese work. Spirits Within is not some hidden gem or unsung hero in the world of CGI animation. It's a garbage movie and the Incredibles destroys it in just about every meaningful way, including art design. And before you tell me that it's an American Disney/Pixar movie and there's no way it can have the ambition of a glorious Nippon movie folded over 1000 times, do some more reading up on the development of Incredibles. There was a painstaking amount of time and money spent trying to achieve things that no other CGI movie had at the time. Point 1: Well, considering that literally 99% of american feature length animated films outside of Ralph Bakshi and some 80s films are aimed at a family demographic, The Incredibles clearly wasn't trying to push the bar of what was acceptable in American animation, nor was it trying to tell a serious story, either. Point 2: You seem to be forgetting that every single scene in Spirits Within had an exponentially greater number of polygons than The Incredibles. It's realism, so obviously Spirits Within didn't have characters making hyper-exaggerated cartoony expressions because it would have looked highly unfitting and would've detracted from the dramatic element, so Spirits Within flawlessly succeeded there. Also, I've never once heard someone complain about Aki's hair in this film. It's hilarious that you're saying that, since that particular visual element in Spirits Within was considered groundbreaking for a feature film at the time. Point 3: As I pointed out before, Spirits Within had an unprecedented level of polygons for a feature film at the time, and it crushed The Incredibles in that regard even four years later when that latter film released. Aki Ross looks like a real human being, while Ms Incredible has the anatomy of a cheap bobble-head or doll. Give credit where it's due please. |
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,571
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Post by scipioafricanus on Dec 9, 2018 9:21:49 GMT
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,827
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Post by Balder on Dec 9, 2018 11:24:01 GMT
Family film doesn't equal instant profit, especially when the budget of the movie is so high. Iron Giant was the movie Brad Bird previously worked on and it bombed despite being a family film. Besides, most fans of Final Fantasy were teens & young adults anyway, who else were they going to aim it to? Making a film for a broad audience doesn't mean a lack of ambition, the same way a film for teens & young adults doesn't automatically equal ambition.
They definitely didn't do facial animation as well, nor did they do hair & cloth as well. I don't know where you would even get that from, since most characters in Spirits Within are wearing bodysuits or armor, and one of the only recurring characters without short hair is Aki and her hair moves like it's underwater half the time.If this was a one time deal with you I wouldn't think much of it, but you have a habit of cherrypicking and/or bitterly shitting on American animation while praising mediocre Japanese work. Spirits Within is not some hidden gem or unsung hero in the world of CGI animation. It's a garbage movie and the Incredibles destroys it in just about every meaningful way, including art design. And before you tell me that it's an American Disney/Pixar movie and there's no way it can have the ambition of a glorious Nippon movie folded over 1000 times, do some more reading up on the development of Incredibles. There was a painstaking amount of time and money spent trying to achieve things that no other CGI movie had at the time. Point 1: Well, considering that literally 99% of american feature length animated films outside of Ralph Bakshi and some 80s films are aimed at a family demographic, The Incredibles clearly wasn't trying to push the bar of what was acceptable in American animation, nor was it trying to tell a serious story, either. Point 2: You seem to be forgetting that every single scene in Spirits Within had an exponentially greater number of polygons than The Incredibles. It's realism, so obviously Spirits Within didn't have characters making hyper-exaggerated cartoony expressions because it would have looked highly unfitting and would've detracted from the dramatic element, so Spirits Within flawlessly succeeded there. Also, I've never once heard someone complain about Aki's hair in this film. It's hilarious that you're saying that, since that particular visual element in Spirits Within was considered groundbreaking for a feature film at the time. Point 3: As I pointed out before, Spirits Within had an unprecedented level of polygons for a feature film at the time, and it crushed The Incredibles in that regard even four years later when that latter film released. Aki Ross looks like a real human being, while Ms Incredible has the anatomy of a cheap bobble-head or doll. Give credit where it's due please. They are cartoony to avoid the uncanny valley. Try to actually to do some research, instead of being so ignorant. |
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Dlotn
Strong Wing
One of my biggest regrets: Making trades and bets with Balder
Posts: 214
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Post by Dlotn on Dec 9, 2018 12:32:56 GMT
if their going for realism, why not just make a live action movie?
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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Dec 9, 2018 15:05:39 GMT
The Incredibles clearly wasn't trying to push the bar of what was acceptable in American animation, nor was it trying to tell a serious story, either. You're doing the same thing again, you're dismissing movies just because they're for families while pretending "serious" movies are sole criteria for a good story. Writers can insert serious themes in their family flicks just like they can hamfist mature elements in an otherwise flawed or simplistic story. Both happen quite often. I wasn't saying that the Spirits Within should've had a cartoon style. If you personally like a realistic style over a cartoony one that's fine, but dismissing the Incredibles because it has a cartoony style is ignorant. Do you know how much of an undertaking it is trying to model, rig, and animate a face that can animate like a 2d cartoon, especially 14+ years ago when you're one of the first ones to do it in a movie? I'd imagine not because now you're using polygon count as your argument. Highly deformable faces and hair/cloth physics both require a lot of polygons in a CGI movie. Even if you're still assuming a non-realistic style automatically means less polygons, all those jungle scenes from the Incredibles probably have a metric shit ton of polygons. Give credit where it's due please. I never denied that Spirits Within was ambitious. What you're doing though is dismissing another movie because it's an American one with a cartoon style. You should take your own advice. |
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Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Dec 9, 2018 17:02:20 GMT
I've never seen the Spirits Within. I don't think I ever heard of it until MeleeMonk suggested it for our Weekly Discussion. I'm not sure how it passed me by. I also haven't watched The Incredibles since it was new. But judging by the clips I've seen on YouTube, Spirits Within has aged very badly - especially when compared with Incredibles, which still holds up very well. Spirits Within doesn't even look good enough to be a cutscene in a video game any more. I'm sure it was impressive in 2001, but there's really no contest here in this poll. Incredibles, hands down. |
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,827
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Post by Balder on Dec 9, 2018 19:06:59 GMT
I've never seen the Spirits Within. I don't think I ever heard of it until MeleeMonk suggested it for our Weekly Discussion. I'm not sure how it passed me by. I also haven't watched The Incredibles since it was new. But judging by the clips I've seen on YouTube, Spirits Within has aged very badly - especially when compared with Incredibles, which still holds up very well. Spirits Within doesn't even look good enough to be a cutscene in a video game any more. I'm sure it was impressive in 2001, but there's really no contest here in this poll. Incredibles, hands down.  |
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