Balder
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Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Mar 23, 2020 10:02:50 GMT
This week: NiGHTS into Dreams Year: 1996 Developer: Sega, Sonic Team Publisher: Sega Platforms: Sega Saturn, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PC Chosen by: Spirit BombNext: meleemaestro
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Post by ModeratorNumber2 on Mar 23, 2020 10:06:59 GMT
Added and stickied. I posted this a day before apparently, this Corona virus situation has made me lose track of which day it is.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Mar 23, 2020 13:45:02 GMT
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scipioafricanus
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Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
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Post by scipioafricanus on Mar 23, 2020 13:45:50 GMT
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Cervantes
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A former Incompetent Evil Commander (XP: 2423)
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Post by Cervantes on Mar 24, 2020 18:04:35 GMT
I've been playing this since 1997, it never gets old.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Mar 26, 2020 3:06:24 GMT
One nice thing that I took years to notice is the deepness of the A-Life system. Basically, the little dudes that you find in the levels can get happy or angry with you, and they also can mate and be combined with the enemies. Also, the music in the levels change according to their humour. It's basically a prototype of the Chao from Sonic Adventure. Here's a video of someone unlocking a King Nightopian and Pian Towers, which is a thing that demands a lot of patience and countless hours (I never had the patience to do it):
As for the game itself, it may be described as a score attack/racing game. You have to fly around the levels as fast as possible while also keeping a combo by constantly flying through rings, grabbing stuff and hitting enemies - more or less like a score-centered, flying version of a Sonic game. Although it uses 3d graphics, the gameplay is largely in 2d (or 2.5d), except for a few moments when Nights transforms into something and you get a behind-the-back view and gameplay. It's very confusing at first, but when you get it, it flows really well. The gameplay is solid, the graphics are very colorful and creative, and the 3d engine is one of the better looking on the Saturn, keeping generally a very solid performance. One of the things that I liked to do was just to explore the levels as the kids (for them, the gameplay is in full 3d), as the scenery is very detailed, has some secrets and is all around impressive. I actually wish Sega had developed the game a bit more to make use of the gameplay when you're one of the kids, with some actual 3d platforming to do.
The only real problem with the game is that it's very much an arcade game on console, so a full playthrough with both characters, even for a first time player, will only take a couple hours. The game certainly needed more levels or modes - they really could have used the gameplay of the kids to extend the game and appeal more to 3d platformer fans. In the 90s, even if I always thought the game was awesome, I wished it had more content.
For the Saturn release, the analog controller is recommended, although the d-pad will also work well enough.
If anyone wants to check it, the HD version is easily available (I have it on Steam, I think it's also on 360/PS3/PS4/Xone). It's exactly the original game with just upgraded visuals, and it even has a Saturn mode if you want to see the original graphics and textures.
As a curiosity: on the Saturn, Nights is one of the few games from that era that supported widescreen (Panzer Dragoon Zwei does it too). It also has a very barebones versus splitscreen mode. Another good addition is a bonus disc called "Christmas Nights", which is a Christmas themed demo of the game that has a lot of easter eggs (including a proto 3d Sonic gameplay) and that reads your save file from the main game to show data on each Nightopian - it's needed if you're trying to raise them.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Mar 26, 2020 9:27:14 GMT
If anyone wants to check it, the HD version is easily available (I have it on Steam, I think it's also on 360/PS3/PS4/Xone). It's exactly the original game with just upgraded visuals, and it even has a Saturn mode if you want to see the original graphics and textures. Excellent review. It was definitely a tech showcase at the time, even the widescreen mode that was very rare at the time demonstrates just that. I have the PS3 HD version, and it is a great port of the game. I wish Panzer Dragoon Zwei gets the same treatment someday.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Mar 26, 2020 13:45:30 GMT
I have this digitally on Xbox 360 and I also have it for the Sega Saturn. I've tried it and enjoyed it quite a bit. A shame that I never played more of it. Should get back to this title one day.
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scipioafricanus
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Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
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Post by scipioafricanus on Mar 26, 2020 14:42:57 GMT
I have this digitally on Xbox 360 and I also have it for the Sega Saturn. I've tried it and enjoyed it quite a bit. A shame that I never played more of it. Should get back to this title one day. What Saturn games do you have?
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Mar 26, 2020 15:19:29 GMT
I have this digitally on Xbox 360 and I also have it for the Sega Saturn. I've tried it and enjoyed it quite a bit. A shame that I never played more of it. Should get back to this title one day. What Saturn games do you have?
DonPachi Layer Section Mobile Suit Gundam Nights Into Dreams Real Bout Fatal Fury Real Bout Fatal Fury Special Saturn Bomberman Street Fighter Collection Street Fighter Zero Strikers 1945 Soukyu Gurentai X-Men vs Street Fighter The Saturn is an incredible console. One of my favorite consoles definitely, but the greatest games for it are so expensive. It's been some time since I last played it though. It's the best console for schmups.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Mar 29, 2020 3:06:58 GMT
I really like NiGHTS Into Dreams a lot, but I have a couple major problems with this game that leads me to consider it overrated. They are: ONE: The jester protagonist I have never found the protagonist's design appealing and I can't understand his/her/its general appeal with gamers. Its design is both crude AND creepy. And it's not even like games from the time weren't able to render realistic characters well; just look at Dash Rendar from SOTE, Lara Croft, or the humans from Panzar Dragoon. This is just bad character design; a crude, aesthetically unappealing cartoon character. At least the kids in the game looked well crafted. TWO: I have never seen the gameplay as innovative. Or at least, not innovative like other gamers make it out to be. For a game that frequently makes lists of the greatest games of all time, I can't imagine its the game's gameplay that keeps putting it there. My main focus with this argument is the game's take on flying. Unlike Super Mario 64, the flying gameplay in NiGHTS is not truly 3D. It's just a 2D-perspective take on flying. Fun? Yes, but not groundbreaking in the least. For me, the game's appeal always lied in the "dreaming" concept, the beautiful hand-drawn backgrounds, the festive & garish foregrounds, the music, audio design, creature designs...all that stuff is first rate, made the game for me, and I loved it. If I did rate it, I would probably give it a 4/5, with the two issues I listed above keeping it from a perfect 5/5. HOWEVER, since I haven't played the game in over a decade now, I don't feel like I'm in a position to give it an accurate rating, since I'm purely going off memory here. It's an absolute travesty that NiGHTS was never given a western re-release until over 15 years after its debut on the Saturn. It's very frustrating to be unable to obtain a physical copy, since I no longer own a Sega Saturn. I guess I've just come to expect this with Saturn games by now.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Mar 29, 2020 6:20:24 GMT
Spirit Bomb - I do like Nights' design. They weren't going for a realistic approach, but for a more abstract, dream-like one - after all, Nights inspiration comes from Jung's psychology, as most things in that game, and is a representation of the Jester archetype, so they draw something that resembles the general features that we expect from a jester, but very stylized (compare it to the awful approach from Pandemonium, which went for more human-like proportions). They were going for a design style based on striking silhouettes, something that Sonic Team had already a lot of experience from Sonic, and made character recognizable even in the simplest drawings thanks to its exaggerated features (again, like Sonic himself). Look at this stripped-down image and see how you can still immediatelly recognize the character: I do find the design and especially the use of color great. A realistic character would not work in the vibrant, cartoony world that they were going for, and even the kids, albeit more realistic, still have anime-like eyes, colors and proportions in general. It's in the vein of what you find in some Pixar movies like Inside Out (except Nights was released more than 20 years earlier). But since you've stated in the past that you prefer realistic styles, I can see how you wouldn't like it at all. The design is certainly divisive even among people who like more cartoony, stylized designs. I think the gameplay is "innovative" more in the sense that there are really no games like it. The flying mechanics aren't groundbreaking or anything (being in 2d and all), but I surely can't think of any other game that plays like Nights. I like the simplicity that they took, again, from Sonic: you only use the analog stick and two buttons for the entire game (boost + acrobatics), and yet you can spend years perfecting how you control the character to get the best times and combos.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Apr 1, 2020 2:32:41 GMT
Spirit Bomb - I do like Nights' design. They weren't going for a realistic approach, but for a more abstract, dream-like one - after all, Nights inspiration comes from Jung's psychology, as most things in that game, and is a representation of the Jester archetype, so they draw something that resembles the general features that we expect from a jester, but very stylized (compare it to the awful approach from Pandemonium, which went for more human-like proportions). They were going for a design style based on striking silhouettes, something that Sonic Team had already a lot of experience from Sonic, and made character recognizable even in the simplest drawings thanks to its exaggerated features (again, like Sonic himself). Look at this stripped-down image and see how you can still immediatelly recognize the character: I do find the design and especially the use of color great. A realistic character would not work in the vibrant, cartoony world that they were going for, and even the kids, albeit more realistic, still have anime-like eyes, colors and proportions in general. It's in the vein of what you find in some Pixar movies like Inside Out (except Nights was released more than 20 years earlier). But since you've stated in the past that you prefer realistic styles, I can see how you wouldn't like it at all. The design is certainly divisive even among people who like more cartoony, stylized designs. I think the gameplay is "innovative" more in the sense that there are really no games like it. The flying mechanics aren't groundbreaking or anything (being in 2d and all), but I surely can't think of any other game that plays like Nights. I like the simplicity that they took, again, from Sonic: you only use the analog stick and two buttons for the entire game (boost + acrobatics), and yet you can spend years perfecting how you control the character to get the best times and combos. My problem with NiGHTS design is that its facial features look very 2-dimensional and flat, especially the eyes. When it comes to cartooning I always prefer eyes that occupy actual space. A random comparison of a cartoon character with a good level of dimension would be this comic artwork of Bucky o' Hare by Michael Golden: Notice how the eyes appear as actual spheres rather than just a flat texture? As someone who has done some cartooning in the past I really appreciate that extra level of effort. The design for NiGHTS doesn't have anywhere near this much detail either. Without that extra level of dimension, the design for NiGHTS just looks creepy to me, especially since its supposedly a human being but looks less anatomically consistent than the kids in the game. I consider NiGHTS design bad cartooning, although I do agree that the purple color scheme of its outfit stands out.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Apr 3, 2020 4:50:49 GMT
Allow me to continue with my argument against the character design of NiGHTS the dream jester. I know I have previously raved about the visual design of the characters in games like Mischief Makers and (coincidentally) Sonic 1-3, even though the characters Sonic the Hedgehog and Marina Liteyears feature a very similarly simplistic cartoony structure as NiGHTS. Yes, it's true that those two characters have the same basic head structure with similar levels of dimension, BUT they are also MUCH more expressive than NiGHTS is. In fact, NiGHTS barely visibly expresses at all. What's the fun of a cartoon that doesn't show expressions??? Also, on the subject of facial features, -Sonic and Marina Liteyears both have noses, but NiGHTS doesn't! WTF why?? A creepy omission. -Why are NiGHTS lips so deflated and crude looking? -Why are the hands realistically rendered, but the head is just a simplistic cartoony sphere? -And, its eyes...look scary to me. If Sonic Team had just slapped a mask over its eyes to conceal them, it would have looked MUCH less creepy IMO. I mean, why not? Face masks are a staple of dreaming and fantasy anyway. A good example is Darien from Sailor Moon: That little detail would have helped a lot! I also don't understand who NiGHTS is supposed to represent. Usually when people dream, they are themselves in their dream, so why didn't the game just use the kids as protagonists instead of using this weird, irrelevant jester character? Was that ever explained in game? IDK, since it's been far too long since I've played it for me to remember the plot details, if there were any.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Apr 3, 2020 10:11:05 GMT
Spirit Bomb - I think some details of Nights' facial features must be considered in face of the graphical limitations from that era's CGI, too. Especially the eyes and mouth: they kept them as simple as possible so the polygon and animation limitations wouldn't be too evident, and most importantly, they kept it simple so the character would translate better between the CGI cutscenes and the game itself. Unlike more detailed or realistic 1996 characters like Lara Croft, that were very different from the in-game graphics to the cutscenes, Nights remains largely the same. Also, look at any of its CGI images: these images are from 1996, and yet the character doesn't look even a bit old (I would even say that its realistic hands are the weak point that denounce the age of the CGI). Take Mischief Makers itself as an example: in the box of the game, there is a CGI version of Marina, and the modeling of the nose is exactly the weak point of the image, as it's obvious they were working with too few polygons. If Sonic Team tried to do more complex eyes, like in that Bucky image, I think it would be even worse in 1996's graphics (Sonic Team was no Pixar and didn't have their budget or time). Since almost every in-game model from that era have flat eyes (just a simple texture), I don't see it as strange in the CGI model, too. It's given a cartoony, almost 2d look that I enjoy. It's certainly not a perfect design and it can be criticized, but I think they nailed a design that would look good in that era's 3d graphics, both CGI and in-game. About what it represents, Nights and a lot of elements from the game come from Carl Gustav Jung's psychology and his study of collective unconscious and universal archetypes, the jester being one of them. The idea is that the archetypes are inside everyone's unconscious, so as the jester is supposed to represent the unconscious desire for freedom from social norms and pressure (remember that the kids have nightmares because of social pressure in the opening cutscene), Sonic Team went with it for their flying character, as flying tends to represent freedom. Of course, the game does that very interesting bit when, by the end of the game, the kids grow and learn to fly by themselves (the level is even called "Twin Seeds ~ The growth"), which means they learn to deal with social pressure, helped by this universal jester archetype that they share with everyone in their dreams, and now can experiment freedom/flight by themselves. It's... pretty deep stuff, actually, for such a straight-forward game that has almost no plot. Edit: That said, a simple mask would indeed be a good addition. They used it for Reala (Nights' doppelganger) in the sequel and it works with the design.
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