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Post by spidershinobi on Oct 28, 2017 19:45:53 GMT
This video up here is the best description of what there is of art in videogames, and why difficulty and challenge are important things. I have never seen somebody speak so much what I think about the matter, but that dude did that, even adding the point of accessibility, which is a topic is often left forgotten when discussing games. Very recommended watch. If it wasn't I wouldn't have opened a thread just for it.And my thanks go to StudioMDHR for developing Cuphead and indirectly starting a controversy over difficulty in videogames, and thanks again to them for also indirectly exposing a bunch of frauds among videogame journalists. Btw, fuck you Gaming Brit, because I have a legit force addiction and you aren't helping it!
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Oct 28, 2017 21:24:55 GMT
Great video, spidershinobi ! One argument that I absolutely loathe (and the video comments on it) is that "you only get stuck in a game, not in a movie or book" bullshit. Why? Because people who say this never read an actually hard book, like something written by, let's say, Jorge Luis Borges or James Joyce. If you skip a particularly hard page that you are not understanding, you won't understand anything else after it - so no, in true works of literary art, you can't "skip" a hard page or a chapter, and some sections of these books might be so hard that most readers will have to read them twice or more (so, these readers will be "stuck" in a hard section before continuing reading). I know that I got stuck in a lot of Borges' short stories. The same goes for a movie: if you are not getting what is going on in a scene of, let's say, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, or Amnesia, "skipping" a section won't do you any good. "Hey, but I can just keep reading/watching!" - yeah, and by the end of the movie/book, you might have seen every image/phrase, but sure as hell you won't have understood any of it. You will have to watch/read it again to understand, in the same way that, in a game, you may have to repeat a particularly hard section until you understand how it works. The argument "only games are hard!" is bullshit. Every art has works made to be hard to the public. Challenge is more evident in video games because of the interactivity, but I argue that difficulty is present in every art form. I even think it is much harder to read through a good translation of The Divine Comedy than beating Dark Souls, two works that I find remarkably similar in their difficulty. So screw those stupid video game reviewers that complain about hard games.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Oct 28, 2017 21:35:28 GMT
Double post:
Just to say that, having played Resident Evil Remake this month, I want to add that the survival horror genre is the easiest one to argue about how challenge is an absolute necessity in some games. I mean, Resident Evil's horror completely ceases to be effective if you have infinite ammo/saves/unlimited inventory. The feeling of dread depends on the game being difficult.
That's basically why, nowadays, I never get scared by any horror movie or series, but horror games still have an effect on me: the anticipation of a challenging situation in which you might lose your progress makes for very effective horror. Among the art forms that try to realize a feeling of horror, the evident challenge makes video games the best one.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 29, 2017 14:49:49 GMT
Every art has works made to be hard to the public. Sorry, man. Gonna call bullshit. Not all art has to be deep.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Oct 29, 2017 15:56:26 GMT
Dan E. Kool - To clarify: I didn't mean that every art should be hard, just that every art has (some) works intentionally harder for whatever reason - and easier works for another reasons. My point is that the same should go for games: not every game needs to be a Ninja Gaiden sequel, but some of them must be hard depending on what tey are trying to achieve. I like playing easy games every now and then, but what annoys me about some game journalists (like John Walker from Rock, Paper, Shotgun) is that they basically defend that every single game should have a easy mode or a skip option, and then they use that nonsense book/movie argument. It's like saying that every book should come with an abridged version made for kids. Some books are made for people who only read once in awhile for entertainment purposes, and some other books are made for people who strongly appreciate literature as a hobby and want more challenging texts. Both of them (easy and hard books) should exist and have their places. The same goes for games: complaining that Dark Souls needs an easy mode would be, in this comparison, like complaining that Finnegan's Wake should only have common words so it's easier to read. If a developer wants to add an easy mode (even the Ninja Gaiden series usually have one), that's nice, but a developer shouldn't feel obligated to add it - only if it's fitting to that particular game. I think easier modes are detrimental to some games or entire genres, like survival horror, while jRPGs rarely benefit from being too hard. Not every movie needs to be Eraserhead, but they should also not all be as easy to follow as a Marvel movie.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 29, 2017 20:14:24 GMT
Not every movie needs to be Eraserhead That's my nightmare fuel.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Oct 29, 2017 20:48:54 GMT
I miss the days when challenge was the biggest selling point.
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Post by spidershinobi on Oct 29, 2017 20:59:24 GMT
You know, Cervantes brought up an interesting point, because most of the time I don't stop to think about difficulty levels in books or music... They're certainly a thing too, but yeah, videogames do contain that side effect of rendering someone unable to see what's ahead. I still think this is a particularity of videogames, because a game such as Killer Is Dead contains that very high difficulty in ascertaining its actual plot; and that doesn't affect the difficulty in terms of gameplay at all. But I actually disagree with you. I wish every game had difficulty levels for everyone, because if Catherine consisted only in its hard mode, I would never have finished a single playthrough in it, so I can picture those people who started Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne but dropped because they couldn't progress, aaaaaannnd I can understand if they complain about it... Likewise, Kirby games are next to unenjoyable to me because they don't contain difficulty levels that challenge us, so I don't bother with those. Of course that it was each of their developers' choices to make those games the way they did, but I always wanted to enjoy Kirby. Btw, I like that this kind of subject is being talked about nowadays. This is an older video focusing on multiplayer games, and I remember enjoying the analysis the author makes here:
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Balder
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Post by Balder on Oct 29, 2017 21:42:10 GMT
Not every movie needs to be Eraserhead, but they should strive themselves to be of similar quality because David Lynch knows what's lit yo. Fixed that for you.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Oct 30, 2017 1:43:00 GMT
I guess there are always Youtube videos for people who are just interested in watching the story. Youtube videos are the Cliff Notes of video games.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Oct 30, 2017 3:48:46 GMT
spidershinobi Core-A-Gaming is a great YouTube channel. I had been subscribed to it for a while.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 30, 2017 6:51:57 GMT
Not every movie needs to be Eraserhead, but they should strive themselves to be of similar quality because David Lynch knows what's lit yo. Fixed that for you. Oh no. You mean I liked a movie by that guy Balder is obsessed with?
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 8, 2017 9:55:11 GMT
Dune 1984 is the bestest flim evah (yo)...
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Balder
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Post by Balder on Nov 8, 2017 11:06:53 GMT
Yeah, hijacking this thread yo.
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