Balder
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Post by Balder on Oct 17, 2018 7:35:56 GMT
I'm going to discuss gun culture and its controversy in an English class I'm teaching. I want to get good arguments from both sides, and who better to ask than Americans themselves. I know we have some prolific pro-gun users here, and I would love to get some arguments from you. Please keep it concise and accurate so that a 16 year old can easily grasp the gist of it. This is not a thread for discussing the topic itself (keep that in the Columbine thread). Thanks.
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scipioafricanus
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 17, 2018 10:59:00 GMT
There isn't a controversy. It is simply a tool that can be use by the end user, for good or bad. You don't need a fire extinguisher every day, but when you need it, YOU NEED IT NOW! Same with a firearm.
The ability to defend your life is a fundamental human right. What do you have to protect yourself?
Citizens have firearms, serfs do not.
Q. Why do you carry that gun? Are you worried that you're going to be attacked or something? Do you think someone is out to get you? (With the obvious implication that if you are carrying, then you must be some sort of paranoid nutball, and maybe even a coward)
A. Well, see if you can follow my reasoning. Are there criminals out there who might attack a person?
Q. Well, yes, of course. But that's what the police are for.
A. Ok, fine, the police. Do you see a police officer accompanying me everywhere I go?
Q. No, of course not. That's stupid.
A. I agree. The police have much better things to do than act as my personal bodyguards. And I notice they don't keep an eye on you either.
Q. <Silence>
A. The cops carry guns, right?
Q. Of course!
A. So I take it you believe that guns are of use in self-defense for the police, and in the bringing to justice of the criminals?
Q. Yes…
A. So are cops supermen? Are they smarter and stronger and more skilled and have more powers than the rest of us? Or are they just normal, mortal men like the rest of us?
Q. No, they're regular people.
A. So really, there's nothing a cop can do with a gun that I cannot.
Q. I guess.
A. So then, if you agree that there are criminals who can potentially victimize anyone; and if you agree that police can use guns in defending themselves and others against these criminals; and if you agree that a police officer can do nothing with a gun that other mortals cannot potentially do; then you must agree that it makes no sense to say that regular people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns too. Am I correct so far?
Q. I guess…
A. So then, you're ok with people owning guns, even if they aren't police?
Q. Sure.
A. Ok. So do you agree that there is the possibility I could need a gun to defend myself or others?
Q. Yes, I guess so.
A. OK. So if I might need one in such a situation, when will I need it?
Q. What?
A. You've agreed that there is the possibility that I might have need for a gun. When? When can I anticipate the attack of a criminal? Will he call and make an appointment to attack me? Or to inform me that he will be attacking you on a certain date or time?
Q. No! Obviously not.
A. So then, how can I be sure that I do have the gun when I need it? And how can I be sure that no one gets hold of my gun-for example a child or a criminal-who might injure themselves or others with it (whether intentionally or not)? The only way I can be sure to have it when I need it, and be sure that no one has it who shouldn't, is to make sure I have it in my possession at all times. So I carry for my safety as well as that of everyone else.
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Balder
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Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Oct 17, 2018 12:34:46 GMT
scipioafricanus a little bit on the long side of an argument, but being super concise it's to protect yourself and others from criminals, correct?
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Oct 17, 2018 13:44:36 GMT
I went to see the Arctic Monkeys last night at the Hollywood Bowl, the place was packed with a lot of people, even though it was a Tuesday, and they are playing tonight again. It was a lot of fun, they played R U Mine?, Arabella, Do I Wanna Know, etc., but at some point before we went in I thought for a second of the shootings in France during a concert, just in the back of my mind.
That's something that never crossed my head before because those kind of things just didn't use to happen. Everytime we started hearing about all those events that look like false flags, and that involve real people dying, there is this extra cautious feel that sometimes pops up. I mean, you still forget about it, but just the fact that you consider it adds an extra layer of bugging that wasn't there before.
The place had good security, and there was metal detectors at the entrance, so it felt pretty safe. So of course everything was fine, but people still have those kind of thoughts once in a while.
Las Vegas shooting was the biggest thing since 911, but no one talks about it anymore despite its magnitude. My guess is that they didn't count with people taking video of the second shooter with their phone. These are not the 1960s anymore, if something is fishy, people can smell it, so they decided to keep it low, and now no outlet mentions it. The media didn't even follow up after a few days because nothing happened as good as planned.
So I guess there is value in gun ownership, otherwise they would not even try to do these things. It is definitely a very subjective topic because it all depends of the situation.
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scipioafricanus
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 17, 2018 22:35:59 GMT
scipioafricanus a little bit on the long side of an argument, but being super concise it's to protect yourself and others from criminals, correct? It sounds overly simple, but "if all guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Other one, there have been places where only the Government had guns. It was Third Reich German and the Warsaw Ghetto.
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scipioafricanus
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 17, 2018 22:46:33 GMT
I went to see the Arctic Monkeys last night at the Hollywood Bowl, the place was packed with a lot of people, even though it was a Tuesday, and they are playing tonight again. It was a lot of fun, they played R U Mine?, Arabella, Do I Wanna Know, etc., but at some point before we went in I thought for a second of the shootings in France during a concert, just in the back of my mind. That's something that never crossed my head before because those kind of things just didn't use to happen. Everytime we started hearing about all those events that look like false flags, and that involve real people dying, there is this extra cautious feel that sometimes pops up. I mean, you still forget about it, but just the fact that you consider it adds an extra layer of bugging that wasn't there before. The place had good security, and there was metal detectors at the entrance, so it felt pretty safe. So of course everything was fine, but people still have those kind of thoughts once in a while. Las Vegas shooting was the biggest thing since 911, but no one talks about it anymore despite its magnitude. My guess is that they didn't count with people taking video of the second shooter with their phone. These are not the 1960s anymore, if something is fishy, people can smell it, so they decided to keep it low, and now no outlet mentions it. The media didn't even follow up after a few days because nothing happened as good as planned. So I guess there is value in gun ownership, otherwise they would not even try to do these things. It is definitely a very subjective topic because it all depends of the situation. You "felt safe" but to a determine individual, you aren't. Every concert I have been to has had security with metal detectors and pat downs, and I always get my carry knife in (and I am "not supposed to" <wink>). When you went in, did you pay attention to all the exits? Did you crowd to the front of the stage? If you did, how are you going to get out if something bad happens? Pyro accident, flash fight, etc. Do you occasional scan the crowd to see if anything is off?
You don't have to paranoid and jumping around like John Belushi in Animal House. Simply paying attention to your surroundings, instead down at your phone, can provide lots of opportunities to see things that others might miss: that lovely woman in a stunning dress or the creepy guy sweating when it is 30*F with something metallic under his coat.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Oct 18, 2018 1:02:21 GMT
I've never owned anything outside of BB guns and airsoft guns (which I had in my youth), so I can't really be of much help. However, my father was a gun owner, and I live in a redneck state where seemingly half (or maybe a quarter) of all adults own guns, and hunting has always been a big part of the state's culture. No one in my family ever hunted, though; most of my father's firearms were passed down from his grandfather (my great grandfather) who fought in WW 1 (all of which were rifles), and the only gun he bought in his lifetime was a simple .22 calibar rifle which he only used for putting down chickens when he owned them. He never owned any handguns.
Since you don't want to talk about gun violence, let me at least say this: the majority of gun murders that get news coverage happen in the big cities (namely madison and milwaukee), but it's not uncommon to hear about gun related deaths in the smaller towns. In my experience watching the news I can safely say that a gun related death happens usually once every other day in the big cities. These are usually low body count incidents (1-2 people killed, sometimes no deaths) usually related to robbery or domestic violence, but just about a month ago there was a mass shooting at a ware house in Madison that left 3-4 people dead. There was a significant mass shooting at a muslim temple near Milwakuee back in 2012 I think, but aside from that Wisconsin hasn't had may mass shootings, probably due to the state's overall low population compared to other states like Texas and Florida where mass shootings are much more common.
Background checks in Wisconsin only prevent criminals from buying firearms. To my knowledge, as long as you have a clean criminal record you are allowed to purchase a gun here, which means that if I wanted to, I could walk into my local Gander Mountain or Dicks Sporting Goods and buy some firearms, evens though I have a history of mental illness and have been to a psych ward twice!! Most other conservative states have even looser gun laws, although I should note that some types of guns available civilians require a permit to carry, even in conservative states like mine.
Speaking of Gander Mountain, I was in my local Gander Mountain yesterday and browsed their guns out of curiosity. They carry some ridiculously powerful ones, like high-end semi-automatic rifles and handguns like the five-seven and such, the kind of weapons usually used in mass shootings or by police forces. The cheapest handgun they carried, a semi-automatic, was $199; I think it was new, but I don't remember the details.
I personally have absolutely no reason to buy a gun, as I don't hunt and don't believe in owning guns for protection (I already have knives, a door-latch and my cellphone for that), so for me it would just be a huge waste of money.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Oct 18, 2018 1:08:51 GMT
scipioafricanus, I always see the ladies with the stunning dresses 😉 Events when people may need guns: - A sudden anarchy situation - Canadians crossing the border with guns (we knew they had them somehow, LOL) - Dumb alien invasions - Fake government drafts - Guys under burqas with gun machines - Kidnappings - Robberies - Zombie apocalypses
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scipioafricanus
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 18, 2018 1:26:39 GMT
scipioafricanus , I always see the ladies with the stunning dresses 😉 Events when people may need guns: - A sudden anarchy situation - Canadians crossing the border with guns (we knew they had them somehowe, LOL) - Dumb alien invasions - Fake government drafts - Guys under burqas with gun machines - Kidnappings - Robberies - Zombie apocalypses I see you don't stare at your phone.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Oct 18, 2018 4:17:41 GMT
scipioafricanus a little bit on the long side of an argument, but being super concise it's to protect yourself and others from criminals, correct? It sounds overly simple, but "if all guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Other one, there have been places where only the Government had guns. It was Third Reich German and the Warsaw Ghetto.
Ah there we go, short and accurate.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Oct 18, 2018 4:18:25 GMT
I see you don't stare at your phone. Shit happens man, you gotta watch out, or you'll miss on those legs and butts.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Oct 20, 2018 3:27:16 GMT
Updated my OG post.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 21, 2018 17:11:21 GMT
Good luck getting me to do your homework for you, Balder.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Nov 14, 2018 18:28:14 GMT
"Wisconsin company buys employees firearms for christmas" www.kgw.com/article/news/nation-world/wisconsin-company-buys-employees-firearms-for-christmas/507-614385410Wow. Just, wow. Seems like a safe move, doesn't it? And it turns out I wasn't dreaming when I said in my original post that there was a mass shooting recently in Madison, Wisconsin. This article mentions it. I just want to add that I'm glad I bought a $250 laptop instead of a gun. I use my laptop everyday and love its utility, whereas if I had bought a cheap hand gun for the same amount of money it would just be sitting in my closet with all my knives and other self-defense weapons.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Dec 16, 2018 2:12:51 GMT
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