Spirit Bomb
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
#DeathToAmerica #DeathToTheAmericas #DeathToChristianity #DeathToFascism
Posts: 3,651
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Oct 4, 2017 1:56:44 GMT
France is having those problems because of ISIS terrorists posing as refugees and smuggling weapons into France from countries in the Middle East that have active terrorist groups to supply them with weapons. If there was no war then that kind of crap wouldn't be happening in Europe. It's a totally different story in America, where our own country supplies the guns to citizens, with bare-minimum background checks, which is why it's so easy for US citizens to acquire guns. Even guns that are illegal (like the one used in this shooting, an AK-47 if I'm not mistaken) are still fairly easy to acquire for anyone with knowledge on guns since America has such a long history with gun distribution & ownership (for example, most machine guns didn't become illegal in the US until the early 80s or so), meaning that a lot of them are still out there & available on the black market. So what gun laws do you think will remedy obtaining illegal guns? The only thing more gun laws will do is keep normal people people like me from getting one. If a criminal wants to get a gun, legal or otherwise, he's gonna get one. But the thing is this guy had no criminal record. Neither did Adam Lanza, nor James holmes or Elliot Rodgers. You don't need to have a criminal record in order to want to kill people, and the weapons Lanza and Rodgers used in their shootings were legal firearms.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,838
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Post by Balder on Oct 4, 2017 6:44:20 GMT
France is having those problems because of ISIS terrorists posing as refugees and smuggling weapons into France from countries in the Middle East that have active terrorist groups to supply them with weapons. If there was no war then that kind of crap wouldn't be happening in Europe. It's a totally different story in America, where our own country supplies the guns to citizens, with bare-minimum background checks, which is why it's so easy for US citizens to acquire guns. Even guns that are illegal (like the one used in this shooting, an AK-47 if I'm not mistaken) are still fairly easy to acquire for anyone with knowledge on guns since America has such a long history with gun distribution & ownership (for example, most machine guns didn't become illegal in the US until the early 80s or so), meaning that a lot of them are still out there & available on the black market. So what gun laws do you think will remedy obtaining illegal guns? The only thing more gun laws will do is keep normal people people like me from getting one. If a criminal wants to get a gun, legal or otherwise, he's gonna get one. That's an argument. However if what people here are saying is true, that he was just a normal dude, that means he could have been affected by a stricter gun law. He might have been denied buying guns if there were more restrictions.
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Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 4, 2017 8:01:14 GMT
So what gun laws do you think will remedy obtaining illegal guns? The only thing more gun laws will do is keep normal people people like me from getting one. If a criminal wants to get a gun, legal or otherwise, he's gonna get one. That's an argument. However if what people here are saying is true, that he was just a normal dude, that means he could have been affected by a stricter gun law. He might have been denied buying guns if there were more restrictions. How? The laws should restrict people who aren't fit to own guns from getting them. If he was fit (at least in appearance), then any law that would limit him from purchasing a gun would also limit every law abiding citizen.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,838
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Post by Balder on Oct 4, 2017 9:12:11 GMT
That's an argument. However if what people here are saying is true, that he was just a normal dude, that means he could have been affected by a stricter gun law. He might have been denied buying guns if there were more restrictions. How? The laws should restrict people who aren't fit to own guns from getting them. If he was fit (at least in appearance), then any law that would limit him from purchasing a gun would also limit every law abiding citizen. How about restricting types of guns? Like for example restrict rifles down to hunting rifles, or hand guns with high calibers or fast fire rates?
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,614
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 4, 2017 10:51:47 GMT
How? The laws should restrict people who aren't fit to own guns from getting them. If he was fit (at least in appearance), then any law that would limit him from purchasing a gun would also limit every law abiding citizen. How about restricting types of guns? Like for example restrict rifles down to hunting rifles, or hand guns with high calibers or fast fire rates? Simply, no. Guy in Nice, France killed 87 people with a truck. Guy in Vegas also had bomb making materials in his truck. Evil doesn't care about laws. What is a hunting rifle? What is a specific caliber that you use for hunting and nothing else? What rifle do you use for that and nothing else? As for pistols, how about everyone but slow revolvers? Machine guns are legal in the US. Since 1934, they have been restricted to Class III weapons. So you need to be approved by the FBI/ATF and get a Class III License. And you want to know how many crimes have been committed by them since 1934... 2 (And one was by a cop). Limiting law-abiding citizens is irrelevant.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,838
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Post by Balder on Oct 4, 2017 11:19:14 GMT
scipioafricanus can you give me 3 good arguments why a civilian should have access to machine guns?
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Armored Core Raven
Vanguard Ranger
Radio: The test is over. From this moment on, you are a Raven!
Posts: 1,738
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Post by Armored Core Raven on Oct 4, 2017 15:07:41 GMT
Balder I can give you three VERY good reasons! 1. Giant insects! 2. UFOs! 3. Giant alien war machines! If we don't prepare ourselves the ravagers will overrun us with giants ants any minute now! We've all seen the prophecy of what happens 2017 if we DON'T all have machine guns, so load up and get ready to mow down!
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Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 4, 2017 16:40:28 GMT
How? The laws should restrict people who aren't fit to own guns from getting them. If he was fit (at least in appearance), then any law that would limit him from purchasing a gun would also limit every law abiding citizen. How about restricting types of guns? Like for example restrict rifles down to hunting rifles, or hand guns with high calibers or fast fire rates? Speaking for myself, I think there's a lot of work that can be done to improve gun law in America. Some states have laws which all but prevent law abiding citizens from registering guns legally, leading to massive black markets. Other states are arguably too lax in their restrictions and registration. There has to be a middle ground between the two. The thing that most outside the U.S. just can't understand about this debate is how big of a part of American culture guns really are and how that relates to our love of individual freedom and our almost paranoid fear of oppressive governments. That's not something that's going to be changed, certainly not by a new law. I think most Americans are open to some reform, but the anti-gun city slickers are going to have to be ready to compromise with the pistol-packing cowboys, and vice versa. That's a tough sell.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,838
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Post by Balder on Oct 4, 2017 17:08:11 GMT
How about restricting types of guns? Like for example restrict rifles down to hunting rifles, or hand guns with high calibers or fast fire rates? Speaking for myself, I think there's a lot of work that can be done to improve gun law in America. Some states have laws which all but prevent law abiding citizens from registering guns legally, leading to massive black markets. Other states are arguably too lax in their restrictions and registration. There has to be a middle ground between the two. The thing that most outside the U.S. just can't understand about this debate is how big of a part of American culture guns really are and how that relates to our love of individual freedom and our almost paranoid fear of oppressive governments. That's not something that's going to be changed, certainly not by a new law. I think most Americans are open to some reform, but the anti-gun city slickers are going to have to be ready to compromise with the pistol-packing cowboys, and vice versa. That's a tough sell. But do you think easy access to guns and shootings have virtually no correlation?
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cobretti
Fire Shark Shinobi
Strong Arm Of The Law
Posts: 1,760
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Post by cobretti on Oct 4, 2017 18:51:21 GMT
Speaking for myself, I think there's a lot of work that can be done to improve gun law in America. Some states have laws which all but prevent law abiding citizens from registering guns legally, leading to massive black markets. Other states are arguably too lax in their restrictions and registration. There has to be a middle ground between the two. The thing that most outside the U.S. just can't understand about this debate is how big of a part of American culture guns really are and how that relates to our love of individual freedom and our almost paranoid fear of oppressive governments. That's not something that's going to be changed, certainly not by a new law. I think most Americans are open to some reform, but the anti-gun city slickers are going to have to be ready to compromise with the pistol-packing cowboys, and vice versa. That's a tough sell. But do you think easy access to guns and shootings have virtually no correlation? That's a good question for the city of Chicago. That city has stricter gun laws than the majority of the United States, yet gun violence and death is insane.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
Posts: 6,838
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Post by Balder on Oct 4, 2017 18:58:09 GMT
But do you think easy access to guns and shootings have virtually no correlation? That's a good question for the city of Chicago. That city has stricter gun laws than the majority of the United States, yet gun violence and death is insane. How much stricter is it?
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Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Oct 4, 2017 20:53:15 GMT
That's a good question for the city of Chicago. That city has stricter gun laws than the majority of the United States, yet gun violence and death is insane. How much stricter is it? Chicago had a complete gun ban for many years. Every gun was banned within city limits. Chicago has some very nice areas, but also some very poor, very violent areas that are all but run by gangs. Unfortunately, the drug dealers and gang members didn't obey the gun laws and the violent crime rate didn't go down. Banning things, it turns out, doesn't make them disappear. The ban was ruled unconstitutional a few years ago and lifted, but the crimes continue. That's another thing about America that people outside don't understand: our constitution. Many European countries scrap their entire constitutions regularly. We don't. Despite being a relatively young country, America has the oldest constitution in the world. It's actually a beautifully written document that has been the inspiration for many (if not most) of the democracies to come after it. Considering that it was written in a time when most countries were ruled by, well, RULERS, a constitution which limits the power of government so decisively is nothing short of genius. So we're proud of it. And the second on our list of ten inalienable rights is the right to bear arms, or own guns. The constitution is very clear. Owning guns is our right. Now, modern Americans are pretty reasonable. We have outlawed many types of guns that the Founding Fathers would never have been able to imagine. But when you're debating your rights, you have to be careful. Rights are a lot easier to give away than they are to get back. But do you think easy access to guns and shootings have virtually no correlation? I don't know if I'd say that, but I'd argue that it's not an issue for other countries like Switzerland, which also has a well armed population. What that means for America, I don't know. But I think if we want a real solution to this problem of mass shooters, we need to look not just at the guns, but beyond them, too. I'm thinking mental health.
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,614
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 4, 2017 21:53:45 GMT
Speaking for myself, I think there's a lot of work that can be done to improve gun law in America. Some states have laws which all but prevent law abiding citizens from registering guns legally, leading to massive black markets. Other states are arguably too lax in their restrictions and registration. There has to be a middle ground between the two. The thing that most outside the U.S. just can't understand about this debate is how big of a part of American culture guns really are and how that relates to our love of individual freedom and our almost paranoid fear of oppressive governments. That's not something that's going to be changed, certainly not by a new law. I think most Americans are open to some reform, but the anti-gun city slickers are going to have to be ready to compromise with the pistol-packing cowboys, and vice versa. That's a tough sell. But do you think easy access to guns and shootings have virtually no correlation? The overall trend in the US is more gun in circulation vs lowering homicides.
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,614
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 4, 2017 22:00:18 GMT
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,614
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Post by scipioafricanus on Oct 4, 2017 22:23:23 GMT
scipioafricanus can you give me 3 good arguments why a civilian should have access to machine guns? 1. They already do/can if you go through the trouble of getting the license, and as I pointed out only two crimes with them since 1934 is a pretty good number on the lawfulness of those people. 2. In Switzerland, it was commonplace for decades that every militiamen held their personal assault rifle (you would call it a machine gun) in their own home. And how many were used in crimes? 3. I don't really want this to go into a complete debate on the 2nd Amendment, but the point of it is a fail safe on a tyrannical government. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." "Well regulated Militia" doesn't mean laws on the people. It means that the militia (which in Federal Code Title 10 U.S.C. 311 is all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age to 45) must have a certain kit to be uniform with everyone. Basically the same stuff that the average infantryman would have in common use. The Founders could have limited what citizens could have. They could have said only bows and arrows for you and muzzle loading rifles for the military. They didn't. They knew about rifles that could shoot 22 times without reloading at the time www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/girardoni-air-rifle/ (Jefferson had one). They didn't. But people will say, well "they didn't know about any machine guns..." True, but they didn't know about TV, radio, or the internet either. Does that mean the only thing that applies to the First Amendment is on the Gutenberg Printing Press? 4. Aw hell... full auto is the most fun you can have with your clothes on! It really isn't any different that demanding someone who bought a Ferrari that his car must be limited to only 65 mph (104.61 km/h). That is the speed limit, after all. If you said that, he would just laugh at you.
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