billspreston
Cheru Wing
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Posts: 336
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Post by billspreston on May 31, 2017 19:14:49 GMT
I'm not sure that they weren't bullied though. Apparently Columbine was one of those giant collegiate high schools. They definitely had friends and they were dicks to people, and most of the people they hung out with were older drop outs. Allegedly they formed their trenchcoat click because some of their friends were bullied for being jewish or homosexual (or simply because they were accused of being gay).
Speaking of their old drop out friends, people always say they had help making the pipe bombs and getting their guns, and perhaps one or two of these guys were actually there that day but got away with it. As you say the media painted them as loners and one of their friends that was accused wound up killing himself so nobody bothers to
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on May 31, 2017 20:04:44 GMT
I'm not sure that they weren't bullied though. Apparently Columbine was one of those giant collegiate high schools. They definitely had friends and they were dicks to people, and most of the people they hung out with were older drop outs. Allegedly they formed their trenchcoat click because some of their friends were bullied for being jewish or homosexual (or simply because they were accused of being gay). Speaking of their old drop out friends, people always say they had help making the pipe bombs and getting their guns, and perhaps one or two of these guys were actually there that day but got away with it. As you say the media painted them as loners and one of their friends that was accused wound up killing himself so nobody bothers to Bothers to what?? Aw man, just when the story was getting juicy, Bill hits us with a cliffhanger!
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centipede
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It was just one soy latte, I swear!
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Post by centipede on May 31, 2017 21:39:38 GMT
What sucked is that the media constructed a narrative in which the killers were introverted, gamers, fans of metal music and goth culture that were bullied by classmates that no one would guess were able to commit any crime - when, in reality, they were outspoken, had already been caught by the police, were reportedly bullies and had f****** hunting as a hobbie. (Why the hell the media gave attention to their virtual guns when they were familiarized with very real, actual guns all the time?) So, what was the fallout ater the shooting? Introverted, bullied kids who always needed help were even more persecuted, now by the institutions themselves. There was an impact even internationally, although certainly not close to be as bad as in the US. Even here in Brazil, goth kids and gamers were briefly seen as suspicious by adults - although what was always bad to our kids was our deeply christian-fundamentalist culture that threats everything fun as satanic influence. Columbine made it a bit worse, albeit for only a few months. EDIT: I won't get into gun culture discussion, but let me just state my opinion is probably close to Balder's - while "guns don't shoot themselves" etc., if those kids didn't have access to guns they would certainly not do so many killings and wounds in so little time. But yeah, we should focus on the consequences it did on gaming culture instead of talking about gun control and politics. THEY weren't the bullied? Where did you read that? Now it sounds like they were born evil, not turned. Give it a rest for a while. Speaking about influences, there is still a lot of nastiness on TV, video games and the internet. I thought the influence of TV was common knowledge, and so I assume other media wouldn't be too different. Balder The point is they would have found some other means to hurt people without guns, and they wouldn't have been as efficient. Dan E. Kool You've troll so much, now it's hard to tell when you're being serious.
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2017 22:34:31 GMT
If you've seen Bowling for Columbine, you would've heard of them for sure. BTW Michael Moore's stuff is a mix of FACT and FICTION. Those can be the best lies. These two kids were messed up, which isn't exactly unusual at their age. So desperate to be accepted, yet so ready to rip each other apart. DOOM didn't spur them on, but you can bet it sure didn't help a lot either (nor would any otehr violent video game)! If they didn't have access to guns, they would've gone with something else, like power tools, knives, molotov cocktails... Kids are impressionable. Even adults are impressionable, but not as much as teens and kids. Any responsible adult wouldn't get my kids any violent games until they were old enough, yet we got so many kids on MA15+ rated games Call of Duty or GTA Online (not that I play nay of those, but I've met people who have). Some parents don't know or don't care when they should know better. Maybe it's not so much the 'gun culture', but a light and lax attitude towards the responsibility of having a gun. And sometimes, you might see it in the movies, like where the hero just goes 'bang bang'. Still, sometimes, when I play a game with heavy blood and gore, I sometimes ask myself: is this really healthy? Should I really play this? No, it's about gun culture. People don't go around with power tools and Molotov cocktails in other countries at school as often as in America. Are people more fucked up there? No I don't think so. It's about the easy access and pride in having guns. People say it's unavoidable, but ironically it only happens that much in countries with easy access to guns. Balder If for one blame Norwegians en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik Adam Lanza at Sandy Hook wanted to break the record he set. Thanks Balder. And the worst massacre at an American school was done with a bomb in 1927: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterI won't bother to find all the "knifings" done in China because they are too many to find (the state has all the guns there by the way, people not so much). And what American guns killed all the people at Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan? How many shootings deaths are there at gun ranges, National Rifle Association meetings, and shooting competitions? Right now you are the same as the anti-video game people, just with blaming gun culture. Love ya Listening Party Buddy, but you should rethink your argument.
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Cervantes
Off-Brand Transformable Robot
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Post by Cervantes on May 31, 2017 22:50:47 GMT
THEY weren't the bullied? Where did you read that? Now it sounds like they were born evil, not turned. Give it a rest for a while. From what I've read some time ago, they were just like a lot of teenagers - on both sucky sides of the bullying spectrum, both being bullied and bullying some other kids (bullying is not always a one way street, right?). Keep in mind I'm not thinking they were born evil or something; what I'm saying is that the media at the time created this scare of introverted/goth/bullied kids, while the real killers, as I understand, were nothing like that. They were kids that very clearly had problems and needed psychological guidance, being already in trouble with the law at that age and everything - their issues were not exactly hidden (so much that one of them was taking antidepressants). The problem was already there, it just went largely ignored. So, instead of giving attention to these kinds of kids (the ones that have a troublesome youth, having been already arrested before adulthood), it was created this idea that the shy kids who just liked video games/music/movies and never had any troubles with police/authority could suddenly kill everyone around them.
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Balder
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Post by Balder on May 31, 2017 23:00:44 GMT
No, it's about gun culture. People don't go around with power tools and Molotov cocktails in other countries at school as often as in America. Are people more fucked up there? No I don't think so. It's about the easy access and pride in having guns. People say it's unavoidable, but ironically it only happens that much in countries with easy access to guns. Balder If for one blame Norwegians en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik Adam Lanza at Sandy Hook wanted to break the record he set. Thanks Balder. And the worst massacre at an American school was done with a bomb in 1927: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterI won't bother to find all the "knifings" done in China because they are too many to find (the state has all the guns there by the way, people not so much). And what American guns killed all the people at Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan? How many shootings deaths are there at gun ranges, National Rifle Association meetings, and shooting competitions? Right now you are the same as the anti-video game people, just with blaming gun culture. Love ya Listening Party Buddy, but you should rethink your argument. Anders Behring Breivik was a political terrorist attack. He made a bomb blowing up a government building then went on to kill youths on a political camp on an island. This is very difficult to prevent as it's a planned and organised act of terror. I'm not arguing that stricter gun control prevents this since it happens in countries with strict gun control (like European countries). However, school shootings are often or at least some times random, ordinary people suddenly cracking and grabs an easy accessible gun and kills children/youths. With a stricter gun control policy, a lot of these shootings may have been prevented. But instead people like Trump wants to fight fire with fire and have guns even more accessible! Why is it that school shootings happen so much more frequently in the US? Why scipioafricanus? You probably hold the 2nd amendment just as close as I do with video games so there's not much chance for me to change your mind anyways.
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2017 23:38:49 GMT
Balder If for one blame Norwegians en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik Adam Lanza at Sandy Hook wanted to break the record he set. Thanks Balder. And the worst massacre at an American school was done with a bomb in 1927: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterI won't bother to find all the "knifings" done in China because they are too many to find (the state has all the guns there by the way, people not so much). And what American guns killed all the people at Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan? How many shootings deaths are there at gun ranges, National Rifle Association meetings, and shooting competitions? Right now you are the same as the anti-video game people, just with blaming gun culture. Love ya Listening Party Buddy, but you should rethink your argument. Anders Behring Breivik was a political terrorist attack. He made a bomb blowing up a government building then went on to kill youths on a political camp on an island. This is very difficult to prevent as it's a planned and organised act of terror. I'm not arguing that stricter gun control prevents this since it happens in countries with strict gun control (like European countries). However, school shootings are often or at least some times random, ordinary people suddenly cracking and grabs an easy accessible gun and kills children/youths. With a stricter gun control policy, a lot of these shootings may have been prevented. But instead people like Trump wants to fight fire with fire and have guns even more accessible! Why is it that school shootings happen so much more frequently in the US? Why scipioafricanus ? You probably hold the 2nd amendment just as close as I do with video games so there's not much chance for me to change your mind anyways. Norway has all the "gun control" that eveyone says is "common sense." And still you produced Anders. He did what he wanted. France does as well, yet a nightclub and newspaper were still attacked by people with illegal guns. Your selection about Anders disproves the second's point. People who want to do harm, find a way to do it (ie Bath School). All school shootings are acts of terror; that is always a goal and result. It was against the law for the murders at Columbine to have firearms, they got them anyway. Adam Lanza killed his mother and took her weapons. In short, no gun control law has ever saved a life; they just cause law abiding people to disarm and be victims. The bad guy always finds a way. "But if all guns were banned, no school shootings..." see Bath School. We don't have to look at how they do it, we have to look at why. Do you know of the teacher that died at Sandy Hook shielding her kids from the shooter? She let herself be shot by that monster in the hope that the kids might live. A noble, but ultimately, futile sacrifice. She wasn't going to stop him by just taking his fire. But what should have happened? She should have taken a proper stance behind cover and dropped the bastard with two rounds to the chest and one to the head with her defensive weapon. Just like having a fire extinguisher for emergencies. It is no different. Evil exists and will do bad things to good people. Good people should prepare themselves for this and not pretend it doesn't exists. Final Thoughts: why is it that the ownership of firearms has gone up in the last 30 years, but crime has gone down in the US? And do you think Quisling would like gun control? I wonder why?
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
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Post by Balder on May 31, 2017 23:48:05 GMT
Anders Behring Breivik was a political terrorist attack. He made a bomb blowing up a government building then went on to kill youths on a political camp on an island. This is very difficult to prevent as it's a planned and organised act of terror. I'm not arguing that stricter gun control prevents this since it happens in countries with strict gun control (like European countries). However, school shootings are often or at least some times random, ordinary people suddenly cracking and grabs an easy accessible gun and kills children/youths. With a stricter gun control policy, a lot of these shootings may have been prevented. But instead people like Trump wants to fight fire with fire and have guns even more accessible! Why is it that school shootings happen so much more frequently in the US? Why scipioafricanus ? You probably hold the 2nd amendment just as close as I do with video games so there's not much chance for me to change your mind anyways. Norway has all the "gun control" that eveyone says is "common sense." And still you produced Anders. He did what he wanted. France does as well, yet a nightclub and newspaper were still attacked by people with illegal guns. Your selection about Anders disproves the second's point. People who want to do harm, find a way to do it (ie Bath School). All school shootings are acts of terror; that is always a goal and result. It was against the law for the murders at Columbine to have firearms, they got them anyway. Adam Lanza killed his mother and took her weapons. In short, no gun control law has ever saved a life; they just cause law abiding people to disarm and be victims. The bad guy always finds a way. "But if all guns were banned, no school shootings..." see Bath School. We don't have to look at how they do it, we have to look at why. Do you know of the teacher that died at Sandy Hook shielding her kids from the shooter? She let herself be shot by that monster in the hope that the kids might live. A noble, but ultimately, futile sacrifice. She wasn't going to stop him by just taking his fire. But what should have happened? She should have taken a proper stance behind cover and dropped the bastard with two rounds to the chest and one to the head with her defensive weapon. Just like having a fire extinguisher for emergencies. It is no different. Evil exists and will do bad things to good people. Good people should prepare themselves for this and not pretend it doesn't exists. Final Thoughts: why is it that the ownership of firearms has gone up in the last 30 years, but crime has gone down in the US? And do you think Quisling would like gun control? I wonder why? You still avoided my question why school shootings happens so often in the US. Also, what does Quisling got to do with anything? Are you comparing fascism to gun control? That makes less sense than all of your other arguments.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on May 31, 2017 23:50:42 GMT
centipede okay, but why do school shootings happen so often in the US compared to nations (that are equally developed) with stricter gun control.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on May 31, 2017 23:53:29 GMT
You still avoided my question why school shootings happens so often in the US. Also, what does Quisling got to do with anything? Are you comparing fascism to gun control? That makes less sense than all of your other arguments. How many school shootings have happened in Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden, in the last 4 console gens?
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2017 23:55:57 GMT
You still avoided my question why school shootings happens so often in the US. Also, what does Quisling got to do with anything? Are you comparing fascism to gun control? That makes less sense than all of your other arguments. How many school shootings have happened in Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden, in the last 4 console gens? Finland had ones in 2007 and 2008.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on May 31, 2017 23:58:14 GMT
Finland had ones in 2007 and 2008. I would be surprised if those countries were exceptions. I mean the cultural background is not so different. Although I imagine incidents like the one in Trollhättan would blame more hack & slash games than shooters.
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Balder
Supreme Overlord
Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Jun 1, 2017 0:25:42 GMT
You still avoided my question why school shootings happens so often in the US. Also, what does Quisling got to do with anything? Are you comparing fascism to gun control? That makes less sense than all of your other arguments. How many school shootings have happened in Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden, in the last 4 console gens? There has been 1 in total in Norway that I'm to find. A kid who was bullied had a shotgun with him and fired 2 shots before getting disarmed by a teacher. Fortunately no one got hit.
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scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,575
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Post by scipioafricanus on Jun 1, 2017 0:25:55 GMT
Norway has all the "gun control" that eveyone says is "common sense." And still you produced Anders. He did what he wanted. France does as well, yet a nightclub and newspaper were still attacked by people with illegal guns. Your selection about Anders disproves the second's point. People who want to do harm, find a way to do it (ie Bath School). All school shootings are acts of terror; that is always a goal and result. It was against the law for the murders at Columbine to have firearms, they got them anyway. Adam Lanza killed his mother and took her weapons. In short, no gun control law has ever saved a life; they just cause law abiding people to disarm and be victims. The bad guy always finds a way. "But if all guns were banned, no school shootings..." see Bath School. We don't have to look at how they do it, we have to look at why. Do you know of the teacher that died at Sandy Hook shielding her kids from the shooter? She let herself be shot by that monster in the hope that the kids might live. A noble, but ultimately, futile sacrifice. She wasn't going to stop him by just taking his fire. But what should have happened? She should have taken a proper stance behind cover and dropped the bastard with two rounds to the chest and one to the head with her defensive weapon. Just like having a fire extinguisher for emergencies. It is no different. Evil exists and will do bad things to good people. Good people should prepare themselves for this and not pretend it doesn't exists. Final Thoughts: why is it that the ownership of firearms has gone up in the last 30 years, but crime has gone down in the US? And do you think Quisling would like gun control? I wonder why? You still avoided my question why school shootings happens so often in the US. Also, what does Quisling got to do with anything? Are you comparing fascism to gun control? That makes less sense than all of your other arguments. I don't know why nor does anyone else. That is the problem. I can tell you what doesn't cause it: video games, music, and gun culture. Guns have been around in this country since 1776. Why is it that rise of shootings is recent, last 20 years? If anything, the rise of video games can be correlated with the school shootings (since they correspond to the same time periods), but correlation doesn't always equal causation. I can acknowledge that, can you? One argument that can be made is the zero tolerance in regards to violence on campus. It used to be if you are bullied, you fought back and stopped it. Now both sides are disciplined regardless of who started it. Young males are far more likely to resort to violence, but when authorities forbid it, where is the outlet? All the pent up rage has to go somewhere. Another could be a simple disregard for "life." Whether it could be from a lack of spiritual faith (holding life sacred), a lack of a code of honor, or just bad parenting, I don't know. I do know that the first two used to be taught/encouraged and approved of by society. That isn't the case anymore. The parents of one of the monsters at Columbine was a rabid anti-gun people, and that worked out great. They definitely failed in the parenting part. But some people are just bad; some are just evil. Gun control gives them the edge. I want all the edges on my side, thank you. One of the core tenants of fascism and communism is gun control. Neither can rule without it. That is why one of the first things they do is limit the private possession of firearms. Hugo Chavez disarmed his citizens during his rule, now his successor is arming his supporters while the people demand his ouster (and food, basic medicine, etc). Do you think they are better off disarmed and starving? It is funny when people who fear Trump the most are the ones that call for gun control. If they fear him THAT MUCH, don't you think they might want to keep some firearms for themselves? That is the point of the 2nd Amendment, after all.
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Balder
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Trying to cut down the amount of movies I watch
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Post by Balder on Jun 1, 2017 0:42:40 GMT
I still don't see how your arguments scipioafricanus disprove mine, but whatever, it's your country. Also, perhaps we should stay away from politics. MeleeMonk sorry for side tracking this thread. I'll take partial blame for that one.
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