stratogustav
Supreme Overlord
Warrior with Bandana
Posts: 7,624
|
Post by stratogustav on Aug 15, 2017 21:57:50 GMT
You fight an army of giant bugs while shouting EDF ! EDF! That is the definition of "so bad it's good." No at all. That's the opposite of bad. That's good because that's what video games are for. To do stuff that you can't do in real life. Bad is like a game trying to be an HBO show for example. Why? Because we already have HBO shows. Bad that is good is for example like a bad fighting game with terrible mechanics but that it is fun to play with friends, like Karate Champ, Shaq Fu, or Double Dragon V. In other genres you can find many of these bad but good games on PC. Stuff like Mafia, Saints Row, Watchdogs, all those games can be good all of the sudden when you add mods.
|
|
Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
|
Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 15, 2017 22:11:31 GMT
You fight an army of giant bugs while shouting EDF ! EDF! That is the definition of "so bad it's good." No at all. That's the opposite of bad. That's good because that's what video games are for. To do stuff that you can't do in real life. Bad is like a game trying to be an HBO show for example. Why? Because we already have HBO shows. Bad that is good is for example like a bad fighting game with terrible mechanics but that it is fun to play with friends, like Karate Champ, Shaq Fu, or Double Dragon V. In other genres you can find many of these bad but good games on PC. Stuff like Mafia, Saints Row, Watchdogs, all those games can be good all of the sudden when you add mods. Do you need me to explain what "so bad it's good" means, stratogustav? Because I'm not sure you get it.
|
|
stratogustav
Supreme Overlord
Warrior with Bandana
Posts: 7,624
|
Post by stratogustav on Aug 15, 2017 22:41:32 GMT
Do you need me to explain what "so bad it's good" means, stratogustav? Because I'm not sure you get it. You don't get it. You are completely lost. For a game to be bad that is good. It has to be bad before it is good. You were saying EDF is bad. There is not a milimeter of bad in EDF.
|
|
billspreston
Cheru Wing
I wrote Max Reebo's first 3 hits
Posts: 336
|
Post by billspreston on Aug 15, 2017 22:49:38 GMT
I'm going to have to 2nd Goose on this one. A 'so bad it's good' game would be something you know is awful and therefore not fun, but there you are drawn in playing it anyway.
I guess an example would be a terrible shareware Doom clone, or a mod like Simpsons Doom that gets old really, really, really fast but you still want to kill Simpsons characters and hear the soundbites over and over.
|
|
scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,600
|
Post by scipioafricanus on Aug 15, 2017 23:30:55 GMT
|
|
Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
|
Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 15, 2017 23:45:27 GMT
Do you need me to explain what "so bad it's good" means, stratogustav ? Because I'm not sure you get it. You don't get it. You are completely lost. For a game to be bad that is good. It has to be bad before it is good. You were saying EDF is bad. There is not a milimeter of bad in EDF. As I said before, your understanding is fundamentally flawed. As in film, "so bad it's good" comes in two flavors: Camp and Camping. Camp is defined the way you described above. Camp is when something seriously tries to be good and fails, but fails so spectacularly that it becomes enjoyable. Camping looks like camp, but is entirely intentional. It portrays itself as serious, but only in its own closed-off universe. Camping is purposefully ridiculous, deadpan serious, but done for laughs. PeeWee Herman is camping. The Room is camp. Airplane! is camping. Zero Hour! is camp. EDF is... You guessed it! Camping. So bad, it's good.
|
|
stratogustav
Supreme Overlord
Warrior with Bandana
Posts: 7,624
|
Post by stratogustav on Aug 16, 2017 10:16:14 GMT
As I said before, your understanding is fundamentally flawed. As in film, "so bad it's good" comes in two flavors: Camp and Camping. Camp is defined the way you described above. Camp is when something seriously tries to be good and fails, but fails so spectacularly that it becomes enjoyable. Camping looks like camp, but is entirely intentional. It portrays itself as serious, but only in its own closed-off universe. Camping is purposefully ridiculous, deadpan serious, but done for laughs. PeeWee Herman is camping. The Room is camp. Airplane! is camping. Zero Hour! is camp. EDF is... You guessed it! Camping. So bad, it's good. Not at all. You're more off than I thought. Regardless of camp or camping as you call it. Let's explain using your definitions. Let's say Camp is just bad because you said by definition it fails. Under your definition Camping can be both. Like you said it is intentional so there is no failing. Failing is what would make it bad. Am I saying camping cannot fail? Of course not. Again only using your definitions. For example E.D.F. is awesome and beyond amazing. It doesn't fail at doing what it tries to do. Now let's look at Agents Of Mayhem. Also an open world game that tries to be EDF but fails miserably at providing that run and gun experience. Agents Of Mayhem comes from the people that make Saints Row. They have tones of experience making open world games, and yet they still failed trying to do their own version of EDF. Both are camping, one excellent, one trash. Now EDF is so good is awesome. Agents Of Mayhem is just bad, but it has the potential to be good with mods. Mods are nothing else than a way to brake a game. A broken game is bad because is broken. Agents Of Mayhem is a bad game that by making it worse (broken) it can suddenly be fun, which makes it good. So that game would be so bad (and broken), that it will be good, because the broken stuff will make it good. And PeeWee Herman is just bad. I saw it. Nothing good on it. The people that say it is so bad that is good are inhaling some powerful stuff.
|
|
Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
|
Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 16, 2017 12:13:11 GMT
Try reading my post again. You're warping my definitions into something wrong.
Camp fails at its intended purpose, but succeeds in unintentional humor. Camping, by contrast, does not fail at anything, when done right. It purposefully imitates the aesthetics of camp, but is wholly self aware.
This is EDF. EDF is camping. I think you think I'm insulting EDF by saying that, but that's not the case.
And PeeWee rocks. No drugs required.
|
|
Cervantes
Off-Brand Transformable Robot
A former Incompetent Evil Commander (XP: 2423)
Posts: 2,860
|
Post by Cervantes on Aug 16, 2017 14:43:03 GMT
When I think of EDF or Musou as "so bad it's good" games, what I mean is that when you look at each of their individual parts, they have everything that would be bad in most games: terrible AI, bad graphics, bland art design, gameplay with no depth at all (button-mashers), repetitive gameplay, no variation between levels, abysmal writing, completely unbalanced charaters and abilities, dozens of sequels that all look and play the same, generic music... These games are literally made of terrible parts. They should stink as a rotten egg fart. So, why the hell are they fun? I say the reason is exactly because they are so unbalanced and trashy (I think it was unintended at first, but by now the developers are doing it on purpose); I can't stop laughing at the terrible and absurd ideas for cutscenes, ridiculous enemy designs, unreasonably overpowered characters and bad excuses to put them together. See, Musou games are basically bad versions of something like Ninja Gaiden, but instead of just being bad (as, let's say, Ninja Theory's DMC...), they are so broken that end up being a blast to play. Some games are made entirely of good parts, but are just boring (I was bored by Bioshock, though I can't say it's really a "bad" game); some games are bad and uncreative and annoying to play (what I thought about Sonic Unleashed, at least half of it); but some games are so broken that you have fun doing unintended things or laughing at what the developers tried to do and just couldn't - one of the quintessential examples would be Jurassic Park: Trespasser. It's a mess, but it's a very funny mess - though I don't think the developers were trying to make we laugh (which is precisely what camp is, as Susan Sontag defined and Dan E. Kool is saying).
|
|
stratogustav
Supreme Overlord
Warrior with Bandana
Posts: 7,624
|
Post by stratogustav on Aug 16, 2017 18:07:28 GMT
Dan E. Kool you are definitely lost. Read my comment again. Using the word bad is completely misguided here. It assumes something "not realistic" is bad for not being realistic. That is literally one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Now Cervantes, you need to play more musuo games. They are very stilish, and they may appear mindless if you just mash buttons, but just like any other hack and slash, amp the difficulty and realize it is all strategy and proper management of combat mechanics. It is not just mashing. The same goes with most hack and slash game. That's the same reason why some people don't appreciate games like Metal Slug because they have infinite quarters, they never get to experience the actual game. This whole idea that realistic graphics equal good is completely backwards thinking and one of the most ridiculous mindsets in the industry. It needs to go away. It is one of the main reasons why gaming is not getting the recognition it deserves as its own form of expression, art, and entertainment.
|
|
billspreston
Cheru Wing
I wrote Max Reebo's first 3 hits
Posts: 336
|
Post by billspreston on Aug 16, 2017 18:22:49 GMT
Can't apply the same standards to interactive media as passive media. Game is game. Movie, is movie. Peoples is peoples. Is frog gone? Yes. Is peoples worrying?
|
|
Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
|
Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 16, 2017 19:26:44 GMT
Dan E. Kool you are definitely lost. Read my comment again. Using the word bad is completely misguided here. It assumes something "not realistic" is bad for not being realistic. That is literally one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. 1. "One of the most absurd things you have ever heard" was never said by me. I never said anything about not being realistic, so the quotation marks aren't appropriate. 2. I also never called EDF "bad." I said it was "the definition of so bad it's good." I'll admit, in this context, calling it the "definition of camping" would have been more specific. I think this is the point you're hung up on. Camp is a stylistic choice that the developers knowingly and purposefully tried to replicate in EDF. That's what makes it Camping. When I said it was so bad it's good, I meant it was campy. As Cervantes said, EDF does things in a purposefully "bad" way because it's funny. That's the game's charm. Honestly, I'm stunned that you're pushing back on this. Don't bother replying again if all you can say is that "I'm lost." I've explained camp as well as I can. If you still don't get it, or can't admit when you're wrong, just move on. Can't apply the same standards to interactive media as passive media. Game is game. Movie, is movie. And camp is camp. In older games I'll agree with you, but games today have fleshed out stories and characters. There's voice acting to be hammed up and plot points to be ridiculed. Even game mechanics can be made badly on purpose. Like spidershinobi mentioned, Ride To Hell is a game that's only enjoyable for how bad it is. Camp. A game like Goat Simulator is purposefully bad for laughs. Camping.
|
|
Dan E. Kool
Walking Trash Can Robot
Now With Extra Pulp!
Posts: 3,325
|
Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 16, 2017 20:01:55 GMT
Don't bother replying again if all you can say is that "I'm lost." I've explained camp as well as I can. If you still don't get it, or can't admit when you're wrong, just move on. That reads more rudely than I'd like. But I think we're just repeating ourselves at this point. Maybe your sense of humor just doesn't extend to Camp. And that's fine. We don't all have to laugh at the same things or even enjoy the same things for the same reasons. You like EDF for whatever turns you on and I'll just sit by the fire and enjoy the camp.
|
|
stratogustav
Supreme Overlord
Warrior with Bandana
Posts: 7,624
|
Post by stratogustav on Aug 19, 2017 0:41:05 GMT
You are still completely lost Dan E. Kool. You repeated your massive error again. You keep saying that the "stylistic choice" devs are using is bad, except they did it good. So it's good. That's the issue, you assume that just because that "stylistic choice" is not realistic, that equals bad. Totally wrong. Even our President would understand that's an absolutely bizarre way of thinking and using terminologies. In no way, shape, or form that notion is reasonable. It is completely crawling on fire balls out nuts. No one in their right mind would assume such a thing. You are clearly trolling. A game is not better because it is more similar to a TV show. That's like saying the ultimate goal of games is to eventually become like real life. I'm the one that loves VR here, and I still recognize that's batshit crazy thinking. Plus look at my rank, I will not allow all that crazy talk without calling on it.
|
|
scipioafricanus
Cartoon Pony Wrangler
Sega Does What Nintendon't... except the 32X
Posts: 3,600
|
Post by scipioafricanus on Aug 19, 2017 1:35:50 GMT
You are still completely lost Dan E. Kool . You repeated your massive error again. You keep saying that the "stylistic choice" devs are using is bad, except they did it good. So it's good. That's the issue, you assume that just because that "stylistic choice" is not realistic, that equals bad. Totally wrong. Even our President would understand that's an absolutely bizarre way of thinking and using terminologies. In no way, shape, or form that notion is reasonable. It is completely crawling on fire balls out nuts. No one in their right mind would assume such a thing. You are clearly trolling. A game is not better because it is more similar to a TV show. That's like saying the ultimate goal of games is to eventually become like real life. I'm the one that loves VR here, and I still recognize that's batshit crazy thinking. Plus look at my rank, I will not allow all that crazy talk without calling on it. EDF!
|
|