stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Aug 20, 2017 2:32:26 GMT
And I do certainly agree that "good parts" don't necessarily make a good game. That's the main issue. Those are not necessarily "good parts". Check this out. This is a Picasso: This is also a Picasso: Going by those definitions Picasso would not be Picasso. That is the kind of thinking that needs to be eradicated from gaming as well otherwise it would never reach the place it deserves as its own art.
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Spirit Bomb
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Post by Spirit Bomb on Aug 20, 2017 6:16:51 GMT
And I do certainly agree that "good parts" don't necessarily make a good game. That's the main issue. Those are not necessarily "good parts". Check this out. This is a Picasso: This is also a Picasso: Going by those definitions Picasso would not be Picasso. That is the kind of thinking that needs to be eradicated from gaming as well otherwise it would never reach the place it deserves as its own art. Seeing those two paintings side by side remind me how much of a monumental hack Pablo Picasso was. The man drew just for the money. It's very sad considering there were millions of pieces of better artwork made during his lifetime by artists who weren't making even 1/1000th of what he was making per painting. It's a similar problem with what's happening in the animation industry these days, with hacks like Seth Mcfarlane making tens of millions of dollars every year while artistic geniuses like Sylvain Chomet struggle to make end's meet and who's films always flop at the box office. Anyway, back on subject: I'd love to see a game use over-the-top, highly exaggerated ragdoll physics. Like, when a character gets shot they fly halfway across the map. I think that would be funny. Broken/exaggerated physics generally make me laugh. Overacted dialogue also tickles me. Bad AI doesn't hurt either.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Aug 20, 2017 7:18:36 GMT
stratogustav - I know, that's why I used quotes. I'm not talking about these individual elements as absolutes, but as conventions: that's why in all my posts I say things like "elements we tend to associate with good or bad games" etc. A lousy, unstable framerate is usually a sign of lazy/bad programming, but it also can be creatively used to indicate an over the top scene, as in NG2, or as an intentional slowdown to help the player, as in Metal Slug and most shmups. Low detailed graphics coupled with an uninspired art direction usually appear in those cashgrab tie in games, but they can be used with great effect to show how absurd, how gamey a setting is - I'm remembering a part in Saints Row 4 in which it parodies beat'em ups; there's also an stealth section where they use guards with terrible AI to parody Metal Gear. See, an AI that's too shallow usually comes along with a bad game, but in this case, it's there as a joke; on Musou games, the shallow AI is intentionally there so the player can go through an exaggerated power fantasy, so they're taking a thing conventionally seen as bad game design and making a ridiculous game out of it. So I didn't say those parts are bad, what I said is that they tend to appear mostly in bad games - when they show up in a good game, it might be as a mean to cheekly parody something. Your Picasso example is already my Bioshock example, so I do understand your point. But don't kid yourself: the reason why Picasso was seen as so innovative was exactly because his famous style was composed of things that, at the time, were usually seen as bad things in painting, like the messed up perspective; he was heavily criticized at first because of it, so it's not like people in painting have no conventions about what elements are good or bad - as in gaming, they also tend to qualify those things. In the same way that Picasso showed that you can make a relevant painting out of "bad" ( as conventionally seen at the time) elements, EDF and other games show you can make a fun game out of elements that are seen as bad in gaming. We can't eradicate these quality conventions out of gaming because quality conventions naturally come with any art form - they are also there in music, movies, photography (as you know much better than me!) etc. The main point is: EDF and Musou are games made with a firm tongue in cheek; if you approach them expecting a deep experience that will change gaming forever you will be sorely disappointed. They are monuments to the conventionally bad things in game design. Spirit Bomb - The last levels in Half- Life 2 are all about exaggerated ragdoll physics, as you throw guards around with your gravity gun. It's priceless!
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 8:31:16 GMT
Hahaha, you are funny Dan E. Kool I can't deny that coolness, but I can deny that you are being reasonable when you suggest that something done intentionally succeeds at being good. It can't be bad not only because it succeeds at what it wants to do but because what it wants to do isn't bad in the first place. Very few can. Something that is camping is doing something objectively bad, pretends (to the audience) that it is good, for laughs. Objectively, that thing is still bad. But we can enjoy it as being something more than that. Cervantes, great posts, man. I think you explained it very well.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 8:44:30 GMT
It's tough to compare film or video games or pretty much anything to fine art because even things which are objectively bad, by all accounts, can and are still lauded as genius. But since you brought it up... This is, as you already posted, a well regarded Picasso painting: This, by contrast, is a bad imitation I found on Deviant Art: Objectively, the second painting is bad. There is less detail and it's ugly. But to someone with camp sensibilities, it could be admired as good - not because that's true, but because it's funny to do so. Someone who is camping might even paint so horribly on purpose, and declare themselves to be a genius. Not because they believe it, but again, because it's funny.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Aug 20, 2017 13:34:48 GMT
This is, as you already posted, a well regarded Picasso painting: This, by contrast, is a bad imitation I found on Deviant Art: Objectively, the second painting is bad. There is less detail and it's ugly. But to someone with camp sensibilities, it could be admired as good - not because that's true, but because it's funny to do so. Someone who is camping might even paint so horribly on purpose, and declare themselves to be a genius. Not because they believe it, but again, because it's funny. You are getting confused again. I'm not saying unrealistic art is by nature good either. Neither bizarre or familiar are necessarily good or bad for being bizarre or familiar. That's the whole point I have been making. That is the whole error here. See both of those paintings can be classified as bizarre at simple view, but one is good and the other one is bad. It goes both ways. It's a very simple concept to understand. What you were saying is that because EDF is so bizarre that it is bad, and that makes it good. See how flawed that way of thinking is? This is why is important to call on it. It is simply not acceptable to spread that kind of iliteracy even if it is just as a joke. as conventions: that's why in all my posts I say things like "elements we tend to associate with good or bad games" etc. That is exactly my point. Those tendencies are a huge problem in the industry publishers know about and take advantage of. This is why is important to call on those tendencies whenever someone brings them up because they ate illiterate and hurt the validity of gaming as its own art and form of entertainment. You know that, we know all know that. The AAA market is saturated by that kind of abuse and you rarely hear people identifying the problem. All we hear is people falling for it, buying the games, and then leaving them on their backlog because the games suck and there is no motivation to play them other than feeling obligated to do so to be part of the conversation. Games are ment to be fun, not that, that is what makes them good games regardless of the choices of art they take.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 18:55:08 GMT
You are getting confused again. I'm not saying unrealistic art is by nature good either. Neither bizarre or familiar are necessarily good or bad for being bizarre or familiar. That's the whole point I have been making. That is the whole error here. See both of those paintings can be classified as bizarre at simple view, but one is good and the other one is bad. It goes both ways. It's a very simple concept to understand. You are well and truly lost. You're more lost than anyone could have ever imagined. It's now 7:30 PM and the sun is setting and our search party is growing worried because soon it will be nighttime. Then, not only will you be lost, but you'll also be... in the dark. Lost and in the dark - every camper's worst nightmare. Bruh, I already asked you to find the exact quote of where I said unrealistic equals bad. (I never did.) I'm not dancing around the argument, as you say, but the problem is you keep putting words in my mouth. Read carefully. I'm going to try to spell out my position as clearly and plainly as possible. Ready? EDF is fun. EDF is unrealistic. EDF is NOT (emphasis) bad because it's unrealistic. EDF is purposefully melodramatic in a purposefully bad way. EDF is funny because of the combination of those two points above. That's why I said it was "so bad it's good." The developers know that the premise of the game is ridiculous, as does everyone playing, but they purposefully made every character, every thing in the game's world treat what's happening with utmost, over-the-top seriousness for comedic effect. That's why I feel it is a good example of a game for centipede 's topic. Again, it's not the unrealistic premise that makes EDF "so bad it's good," it's the corny, overly dramatic way that the unrealistic-ness is TREATED that makes it so.If you take EDF at face value... Fine. I couldn't care less. But to me and Cervantes and many others who appreciate the campy aspects of the games, this is why we like it. That's all.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Aug 20, 2017 19:28:13 GMT
EDF is purposefully melodramatic in a purposefully bad way. See, epic fail right there. There is no bad in any of the stylistic resources and game design choices the game use. That is the issue, thinking those options are by nature bad. It is the backwards thinking I had been referring to and addressing directly in previous posts. It is not complicated, it is a very easy thing to understand. EDF = 100% nothing bad, nothing bad but good, nothing. Just all good, 100% good. Get it?
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 21:04:39 GMT
EDF is purposefully melodramatic in a purposefully bad way. See, epic fail right there. There is no bad in any of the stylistic resources and game design choices the game use. That is the issue, thinking those options are by nature bad. It is the backwards thinking I had been referring to and addressing directly in previous posts. It is not complicated, it is a very easy thing to understand. EDF = 100% nothing bad, nothing bad but good, nothing. Just all good, 100% good. Get it? So you're the Opinion Police now, or what? If you want to take the bad voice acting, melodrama, and frame rate drops at face value, by all means, be my guest. But you're never going to convince me that those are "good" qualities. Done for a laugh? Absolutely. But not objectively good. Take a look at this amazing trailer: The music, camera angles, old-timey filter of the first 30 seconds - a clear throwback to 1950s B movies, the cheesy monster flicks that EDF draws inspiration from. It doesn't do that because those movies were good, it does it because they're laughably bad. And I love it. Watch this guy's opinion: Read the comments: If your goal is to make everyone enjoy this game EXACTLY as you do, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Aug 20, 2017 21:20:27 GMT
So you're the Opinion Police now, or what? It is not my fault people had been brainwashed by advertising and publishers. Remember when everyone thought Power Rangers were cool and badass? A kid has a clean mind clear of judgment. When kids grow all these new ideas start clogging their minds with impulsive judgment and comparisons and they become unable to appreciate things without these filters. I obviously cannot unclog your minds from all those dirty filters, but I will call on them because they are counterproductive and prejudiced.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 21:25:36 GMT
Remember when everyone thought Power Rangers were cool and badass? I remember it well. It was one of my favorite shows as a kid. A couple years ago I watched some episodes again on YouTube. I still loved it, but for different reasons. What's wrong with enjoying things in different ways?
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Aug 20, 2017 21:32:39 GMT
EDF is purposefully melodramatic in a purposefully bad way. See, epic fail right there. There is no bad in any of the stylistic resources and game design choices the game use. That is the issue, thinking those options are by nature bad. It is the backwards thinking I had been referring to and addressing directly in previous posts. It is not complicated, it is a very easy thing to understand. EDF = 100% nothing bad, nothing bad but good, nothing. Just all good, 100% good. Get it? The problem is that you're basically advocating that gaming should have no quality standards, which isn't true for any known art form: in literature, music, movies, painting etc., in all of them people differentiate good from bad qualities. If you were to study other art forms throughly, you would see that all of them have actually MUCH higher quality standards than gaming (I can certainly say that for literature). Here is the thing: you like EDF (as I do), so you say it's 100% good, all good about it. See, I also like Panzer Dragoon Saga, which is a pretty good game. You want me to seriously believe that the writing in EDF is as good as the one in PDS? Or that the art direction in EDF is as creative as the one in PDS? Or that the music is as sublime as PDS's soundtrack? Or that the gameplay is as creative as the PDS combat system? If you have any standards, you'll agree with me that you can love EDF (much more than Panzer Dragoon Saga, if you want) while also admiting that some aspects of it aren't exactly great. You can't seriously compare it to other good games without admiting that it's a cheesy budget game. If you don't know PDS, you can replace it for Chrono Trigger or Zelda: Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid if you want, the point stands mostly the same.
Here is my main point: see, I love reading pulp western books. Why? Because I personally like the setting and have a lot of nostalgia, as my grandfather's house had a lot of them. I also appreciate all the clichés, accidental continuity errors, the shallow language and the childish way the conflicts are resolved. But sure as hell I won't say those are "good qualities" in a book and also won't say those pulp westerns are as good as the works written by Dante, Cervantes, Borges, Poe or other truly genious authors. I can appreciate both of them while also admiting that, well, one thing is not like the other: to fully appreciate the pulp western, I must "get on the joke"; I know that the book isn't supposed to rival Homer's Iliad or Odyssey. I know it's not on the same level. I appreciate it because of its childish naivety that makes it not realize its own flaws, while I appreciate those other authors for the the complexity, creativity and great care that went into every detail. So Virtual Hydlide and Zelda: Ocarina of Time can be both "good" games; but one of them is good because of "the complexity, creativity and great care that went into every detail", while the other is good because of "its childish naivety that makes it not realize its own flaws" - which means that Virtual Hydlide can only be good if you forgive how bad it is. It's so bad that it's good. As those pulp western stories. Or as EDF, except that I believe EDF does this in a slightly more conscious way.
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Dan E. Kool
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Post by Dan E. Kool on Aug 20, 2017 21:42:51 GMT
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Aug 20, 2017 22:09:27 GMT
If you have any standards, you'll agree with me that you can love EDF (much more than Panzer Dragoon Saga, if you want) while also admiting that some aspects of it aren't exactly great. You can't seriously compare it to other good games without admiting that it's a cheesy budget game. If you don't know PDS, you can replace it for Chrono Trigger or Zelda: Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid if you want, the point stands mostly the same..
You are comparing apples and oranges. If all games were like PDS there would not be many people playing. Gaming is all about diversity. It has nothing to do with standards. Gran Turismo 2 is a 10 to me, but so it is Daytona USA. In fact as time went by one can argue Daytona USA is better. Yet it is far less complex and developed than Gran Turismo. That is exactly why those notions should disappear. They are ironic and have a very naive grasp of what actually matters in gaming and that make it good overall.
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Aug 20, 2017 23:06:11 GMT
stratogustav - Mate, I didn't say anywhere that every game should be like PDS. I literally said (and even used italics for emphasis) that I like both PDS and EDF, just for different reasons. I stated those in the second part of my post.
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