leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 6:35:36 GMT
Your definition of RPG is shallow. Final Fantasy XV, a main title in the RPG IP, as it dropped after 10 years of development from the internal Square Enix studio, the RPG makers, is a full blown RPG without any further updates, while something like Tekken where you can choose between different classes is not. The same goes for Gran Turismo, and the like. That's just reality. Hmph, then offer your own one.  Btw, XV started and continued development as 'Versus-XIII' for up to 6 years (2006-2012), and was meant to be an action oriented spin-off the main XIII, hence the 'Versus' title and eventual gameplay carry over. |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 7:03:26 GMT
I did before ^^^. For example in Gran Tutismo you can upgrade your car, but ultimately it is your driving skills as a player what "level up" over time, the same thing goes with fighting games, the one actually leveling up in skills is "you", the player, and even though they have many classes that you can choose from, they are NOT role-playing games.
In actual role-playing games it is your character what levels up. Your avatar plays the role of you the player, and levels up for you.
Even though it is true you can level up your skills as a player in RPG games, like the Souls games for example, your character also levels up.
One of the main characteristics in role-playing games is that you start in an area that it is a bit challenging while you're learning the game, think the Deku Tree, but then as you progress in the game, you comeback to the same area, and now the difficulty is laughable simply because your character leveled up, even though your skills as a player are not that much better than when you started playing the game.
In shmups you can upgrade your ship, and become more powerful, that can help, but the levels won't get much easier unless you level up as a player too.
Role-playing games don't ask you this, you can be a better player, and beat areas you are not supposed to beat yet, but ultimately the game is designed around expecting your character to level up to pass these areas without asking you to become better yourself because your avatar, hero or whatnot, is role-playing you.
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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Nov 13, 2018 7:11:14 GMT
As by that definition, not all modern supposed RPGs would qualify This is why I'm so hesitant on trying to give a solid definition, because modern RPGs have stretched the definition so far that they practically blend in with other games that merely have some rpg elements. |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 7:45:10 GMT
This is why I'm so hesitant on trying to give a solid definition, because modern RPGs have stretched the definition so far that they practically blend in with other games that merely have some rpg elements. Not under the definition I just explained before. I mentioned how Gran Turismo may have role-playing elements, but it is not an RPG. The RPG genre is very defined under those terms. |
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 9:58:07 GMT
If this is the essence of your definition @strato: In actual role-playing games it is your character what levels up. Your avatar plays the role of you the player, and levels up for you.You do realize how ridiculous that sounds don't you.  |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 12:30:54 GMT
You realize how ridiculous that sounds don't you. It may sound ridiculously simple, but it is actually genius because it solves all those actual ridiculous misunderstandings that separate modern, and old. It unites everything. Think of this as an Einsten level solution to all debates. It makes perfect sense, and immediately separates games that have RPG elements that are not, from those that are. Brilliant one could say, I'm actually impressed, and have goosebumps of how good this definition is. |
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 14:01:55 GMT
So, just to be clear - By stratogustav 's Definition of a Role Playing Game:
The Role that is being played is the role of the Human player.
(i.e. Not warrior, not healer, not wizard, but Human player)
And the one playing that role of the human player is the Game Character.
Correct? |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 14:04:53 GMT
So, just to be clear - By stratogustav 's Definition of a Role Playing Game:
The Role that is being played is the role of the Human player.
(i.e. Not warrior, not healer, not wizard, but Human player)
And the one playing that role of the human player is the Game Character.
Correct? You forgot to say: "...and vice versa." As opposed of non RPG games were you play with the character, aka not an Avatar, an RC experience, but you are still missing the main point: The difference between you levelling up in relation to the difficulty, versus the character levelling up in relation to the difficulty. |
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 14:15:16 GMT
You forgot to say: "...and vice versa." So, just to be clear - By stratogustav 's Definition of a Role Playing Game (addendum):
The Role that is being played is the role of the Human player.
(i.e. Not warrior, not healer, not wizard, but Human player)
The one playing that role of the human player is the Game Character.
And the Human Player is playing the Game Character who is also playing the Human Player.
Now is it perfect? |
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 14:23:58 GMT
leaon79s, since the non-human character is not a human, you could say it represents the real player, but what you said it is still not perfect because you are missing the main point, skill level up of the character, versus skill level up of the player. I explained how the player can level up in non-rpg games, but in rpg, the player levelling up is not as important, even though it can still be present, but what is important instead is that the character levels up to clear higher difficulty areas. In non-rpg games like Street Fighter for example, Ryu, Ken, or Chun-Li do not level up as you play more; instead it is Daigo, Alex Valle, or Justin Wong that level up with practice, and experience.
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 15:13:16 GMT
You forgot to say: "...and vice versa." + leaon79s , since the non-human character is not a human, you could say it represents the real player, but what you said it is still not perfect because you are missing the main point, skill level up of the character, versus skill level up of the player. So, just to be clear - By stratogustav 's Definition of a Role Playing Game (addendum 2 - insisted):
The Role that is being played is the role of the Human player.
(i.e. Not warrior, not healer, not wizard, but Human player)
The one playing that role of the human player is the Game Character.
And the Human Player is playing the Game Character who is also playing the Human Player because the Game Character needs to level up for the Human Player who does not need to level up.
There. |
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Cervantes
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Post by Cervantes on Nov 13, 2018 17:56:53 GMT
Can't we just simplify it and say that what RPG video games took from pen & paper RPGs was mostly the dice rolls / stat based actions? Everytime we say that a game has "RPG elements/mechanics" we mean that it has some level of randomization in the combat (your attacks have a % chance of hitting or not, or a chance of dealing x to y damage, or there's a % chance of doing any action like opening a chest or bribing a NPC etc.) and the character has numerical stats that can go up with time. In the video game medium, "RPGs" almost never had anyting to do with actual roleplaying, creating your own character etc., or we'll be forced to say that Chrono Trigger, most Final Fantasies and the Dragon Quest games aren't RPGs, which is the genre they were always identified as. In truth, "RPG" was always about the gameplay being based on the abstraction of numerical values defining the success of the characters' actions. When it's built entirely around it, as in almost every turn-based game, we're very comfortable in calling it a RPG; when the numbers are just there to add a small element of randomization or progression to what would be otherwise an action game (where the result is dependent on the reflexes of the player and directly by his inputs), then we tend to call it an action-RPG, as with Dark Souls or the Ys series. Hey, maybe it looks like a strategy game, but the battles are still dependent on all those numerical elements, stats and dice rolls - then we tend to call it a strategy-RPG, like FF Tactics or the classic Shining Force series. It's not far from what stratogustav is arguing: in action games, the player dexterity is being put to test; in a RPG, it tends to be a test to the characters' current stats/abilities. That's why RPGs tend to be more about preparation than other genres: the player must know at which level to confront a boss, or which stats are most important to get there or which items the character should be carrying (usually considering other numerical values like the weight of the equipment). That said, that's the probable reason why I rarely ever see, at least nowadays, anyone referring to the Zelda series as if they were RPGs, since there are no dice rolls/randomization element for anything: a specific item/sword will always deal the same damage values to the same enemies, a specific enemy attack will always be defended or not by the shield and will always deal the same fixed damage value to Link; there are no stats whatsoever to give a % chance of realizing any action and the "progression" is entirely made through finding items placed at fixed points instead of through abstract numerical values (like the exp points in almost every RPG). Of course, Zelda 2 would be the exception in the series (it is an action-RPG like the Ys series); I haven't played Breath of the Wild, but I've heard it also has some RPG elements, though I don't know to which extent. |
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Post by winnersdontusedrugs on Nov 13, 2018 17:57:28 GMT
stratogustav That's because it's the wrong definition. Leveling-up is only an element of an RPG, not the whole package. How many action/action-adventure games released in the past several years have had XP , skill trees, or some sort of upgrades? Those are not RPGs, those are games with RPG elements.
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leaon79s
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Post by leaon79s on Nov 13, 2018 21:29:37 GMT
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stratogustav
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Post by stratogustav on Nov 13, 2018 21:30:28 GMT
leaon79s, it is still not good because by using "()" you took out the roles. Yes, the character plays the role of the player, but as whatever class they belong. So for example if you choose to be a Hero, or a Wizard, the character is representating you as a Hero, or as a Wizard, depending what you choose, etc.. The vise versa comes from the idea that let's say you choose a character that is a Wizard, then you are also role-playing the character, the Wizard, through the character which is your avatar. winnersdontusedrugs, that's because the definition is not limited to levelling up, it involves that the role-playing levels up with the purpose of clearing an area that otherwise is not supposed to be cleared yet, this is why I mentioned the relation of levelling up to the difficulty ment for the player, versus levelling up to the difficulty ment for the character. Those are the numeric numbers Cervantes is talking about. All games have numeric stats for their attacks, and defense. In fighting games for example they are measured usually through percentage of damage, and your blocking gauge. However in RPGs by the definition I shared, the leveling up of those numbers determines if you have the proper clearance to play an area or not, even if yiu can reach it while you are not supposed to. It is important to clarify that those numbers can be shown, or be written in the code of the game without letting the player know about them directly through numeric representations. Instead they can also simbolize the notions of strength, defense, or stamina, through the hub, and items of the game, like a shield that it is more powerful, an increasing energy meter, or how many hits can you take if you increase the amount of hearts, just to say an example. You can also build on top of that with healing posions, tunics, stones, etc.. Like I said, in non-rpg it is the player that needs to build skills to overcome higher difficult levels. For example traditionally in action games the first levels are easy, and teach you how to play, as you become better by playing the game, the higher levels will be harder, and if you haven't build the skills as a player yet, you will die until you level up yourself to have enough playing skills to pass the levels, regardless of the numeric inputs of your character like XP or whatnot. Think Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, God Of War, even Mario, and Mega Man. In RPG titles, even though the player can also become a better player in skills over time, for the most part, the skillset of the player remains about the same through out the whole game, and instead it is your avatar the one that needs to level up for you to be able to implement whatever strategy you have in mind to clear that area, or face a certain enemy. There are tricky cases like it is the case of the Souls games where the player needs to build a skillset of their own besides leveling up the character to clear an area; however even then the definition still applies there because higher areas are designed with the idea that you character will be levelled up to a certain level by the time you reach that area, or boss, in order to clear it. Which by the definition makes the Souls games RPG as well, even though they have action games elements.
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