What makes a good RPG?

box art

That's what I think, too.

Just to elaborate a bit on what I said: in action/fighting/whatever games, those numbers tend to be fixed - every time you use that attack, it will deal the same amount of damage, maybe with just a little variation. In a platformer, every time you press the jump button, the character will jump, and that jump is completely controlled by your input - there's nothing random about it. Imagine if Mario randomly failed at jumps the same way that RPG characters randomly miss their attacks... RPGs always have some degree of randomization that the player can't control, which is the "dice roll" that I was talking about - that is the main element that came from pen & paper RPGs to video game ones. For a quick comparison, in Doom, you aim and shoot - if you aimed well, it's a sure hit; in Valkyria Chronicles, even if you aimed well and the enemy is right at the center of your reticule, once you shoot there's a chance that your character will miss or the enemy will dodge - the success of the action is largely determined by a dice roll, for which the chances are calculated taking into account both your character's and the enemy's stats. That's why people call VC a mix of strategy/shooting/RPG game.

That's why almost every RPG ever has a "level up" system in place: since the success of the actions don't depend on the player's inputs, but on random chance determined by the character's stats, the best way to feel that you're progressing through the game is by gradually making those chances better, so you'll hit more, defend more, survive longer, heal more etc.

Action-RPGs try to balance things: in Dark Souls or in Ys (or, let's say, the metroidvania Castlevanias) it's possible to beat a boss at a lower level, but then you'll have to be better at the game - if you aren't, then you can grind for a bit until your character has better stats. I think that's why almost every big game nowadays has at least a few RPG elements: just so you won't get stuck at a boss even if you suck at the game, as you can always make it easier by grinding for a bit. 

stratogustav - Yep, we posted at almost the same time! I do like your definition, though I think the "dice roll" aspect is still important enough in my mind. Maybe that's because the definition of what is an "avatar's skill level" might be too open. For example, in Ninja Gaiden, or Bayonetta, or Devil May Cry, the character will, through the game, learn new techniques, extend its health, learn some magic attacks etc., and this is all necessary to beat those games. Some people might consider this, in a way, the character making its skill level better, which could characterize those games as RPGs - which they certainly aren't.

That's why I think what we usually call a RPG has both the "dependability of your avatar's skill level to progress" and the "dice roll/random chance" aspect. There are, certainly, games with only one of those two, but most series that we traditionally see as RPGs (the Ultimas and Elder Scrolls and Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests out there) have both of them on some level.

??
I didn't use anymore "()"
The one that was there was taken out just like you wanted... 


But anyway, please indulge me just so we can corroborate using layman's language.

The Role that is being played is given to the Human player by the Game Character.


The one playing that role is the Human Player as the Game Character.


And the Human Player is playing the role as the Game Character to level the Game Character up so that the Human Player does not need to level up to progress in the game - Although this is somewhat dependent on the game.




Are we on the same page?

leaon79s I hope so. The way you interpreted things before makes me hesitant.

I feel the hardest thing for you the grasp is the concet of an avatar, (a representation of yourself in a virtual setting).

This is what facilitates the role-playing. In real life role-playing is done by actors that lose their own identity while the role-playing is being done, and become the persona of the character they are representing.

In a game it is the playable character what takes this role, making a persona of yourself within the class or title the playable character belongs to (king, prostitute, sex slave, etc.).



I addressed this concern before because I knew it was coming, although I did it many comments ago.

I'll repeat myself in other words, but it is basically the same thing I said before.

The answer is no, it is not easy to do these things you are talking about, you need to develop player skills to do so.

I have seen Cosmo beating Ganondorf with a Deku stick, using multiple game hacks, but for the average player this is not easy to accomplish.

The same goes for Souls games, hardcore speedrunners will run around naked, and beat the game, but this is not doable for the average player. In fact, in the case of Souls games the average player won't even play the game at all because of the learning curve.

That said, those games are still "designed" with the character's development in mind to progress. Just because "it is possible" to overcome what the developers intended through developing the player's skills, the game was still designed with the progress depending primarily around the character's development, even if it allows a path around that original design for experienced players.

So yes, Bloodborne, Nioh, Zelda, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, are all RPGs.

Souls games in particular have a lot of Action game elements (player skill development), but are still RPGs for the design in place.

Think of Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, and Devil May Cry, but in vice versa, where you can develop you character, but the games are still designed with the idea of the player's skill overcoming the obstacles, so even if they have RPG elements, they are still action games.

Cervantes I admit Zelda is tricky because it has too many RPG elements combined to dismiss it as an RPG, but at the same time it has too many elements of action games combined to dismiss it as an action game, and it has too many elements of adventure games to dismiss it as an adventure game.

Yes, there are weapon upgrades, there are shield upgrades, at one point you have to collect different items just to upgrade your Goron's sword, there are health upgrades through hearts, there are magic upgrades through the energy meter, there are NPC side quests, there is dungeon exploration, towns NPC dialogues, mini games, there are specific skills adquire through items that serve an specific purpose for certain enemies, like Din's fire, the Farore's Wind, the Nayru's Love, etc., upgrades that increase your magic, learn new sword skills, and also break in half your taken damage, currency, ability to upgrade your carrying currency, tunics for resistance to different world elements, potion management, and even tunes with progression purposes.

If you take all those elements separately they are definitely not enough to consider it a solid case, but just the sheer amount of different elements in place at the same time makes it an RPG, hence it is a strong source of inspiration for Western single-player RPGs.

It is definitely a paradox of genre. For example you would have to mash up Firewatch, The Witness, The Phantom Pain, The Witcher 3, and Skyrim just to get something like Breath Of The Wild, and that makes it unique.

In fact, I have no issue in people not considering it a RPG, as I have no issue in people considering it an RPG, because the game has a dual nature in that regard. It is not an RPG as much as it is.

For me, and I'll say it again, the main test for an RPG, and I admit this is just me, is to be able fo comeback to an area you previously explored, except this time, your hero has grown so much that what felt like a challenge before now the challenge is a joke.

This is to me the most meaningful and defined test for an RPG as it entails overall maturity of your game's character. It is also a recurring theme in Zelda games, that made me consider it as a RPG, even if I initially didn't want it to be one, as I have notoriously try to stay away from the genre altogether in the past.

I think the confusion came from you omitting the second half of the definition where I stated:



When I said it was brilliant I ment the whole thing, not just the first half. The progression through the Avatar part is just as important as the ability of the Avatar to level up within the game.